Talk:Batman villains

Introductory Paragraph

I gotta ask: what's the point of that top paragraph? If it was more specific about dates, that would be one thing, but as it is, it's just vague. Not to mention repeating links that were already present in the page. Lokicarbis 13:03, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)

The intro, provides an overview of the list; most importantly links to some of the more famous villains up front. I alphabetized the list of villains, to avoid the possibility of a hierarchy edit war, which I have seen occur at lists before. I also expect the list will grow substantially in the future and thus required a more substantial first paragraph. I was intentionally vague, because I was not sure of when all of the major villains emerged. I also assumed by the article title that this was intended to be an article rather than solely a list; which would make it a stub in need of expansion. If you only intended this to be a list when you created it, you may want to consider moving it to List of Enemies of Batman, which better meets wikipedia's naming conventions. If you decide to move the page, but don't know how please feel free to ask me or another user how to do it. -JCarriker|Talk 11:16, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I hadn't really thought about whether it should be a list or not... since there's a category, I guess probably not. I'm not the creator of the page as such, since I contributed very little of the content. I'm just the guy who split it off the main Batman page when that got too long.

I am wondering if maybe we should list the villains in chronological order of appearance - what do you think? Lokicarbis 13:11, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

That's fine with me so long as it is in a set order-- alphabetical or chronological, it will address my concerns. Ultimatley there may be so many Batmanvillains, this page itself might have to be broken into an article and a list, but we can cross that bridge when we get there.-JCarriker 13:19, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

Sounds fair. Now, where did I leave my copy of Wizard's Dark Book? :) Lokicarbis 13:22, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to put in a few more villains to flesh out the list. I'm going to add them indiviually so that you can easily see the additions in the edit history. Since the chronology hasn't been established yet, I'm going to put them in alphabetically for now and we can rearrange them latter :). -JCarriker 11:59, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

On that note, what's the point of the "History" section? It's difficult to understand and written in a way that makes it sound like the Batman villains are in some bizarre sort of footrace to be Batman's "worst enemy." I think the introductory paragraph and the lists would suffice.--Gillespee 18:34, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Fair use?

Would it be fair use to take these thumbnails of batman covers from the onion page? here? Guttlekraw 07:13, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

the Clock King

The clock king apeared in comics first, fellas, thats a basic. He was renamed for the Animaded series. but by being part of the Task Force X, he confirmed he is the same, only with a cooler name.--T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 04:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC) Also did a little justice to some 60's actors missing due to the fact that there the ones from the modern movies and the ones with no comics adaptation, but that leeves a cuple of catwomans, a couple of mr. freezes a mad hatter and a clock king out. Also the floronicman, which has fough Batman on many ocations has appeared on the movies

This page is not a list, it should explain the overall situation with batman villains, puttng them in context.--T for Trouble-maker 22:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Ra's Al Ghul

Isn't Ra's Al Ghul dead now, leaving his daughter Nyssa as the new Ra's Al Ghul? Should the enemies page be updated with such info?--Gillespee 07:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

You are totally right, sir!!. Right know I'm busy. But if I find time I provide the info directly to you.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 21:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Sourcing

I'll soon provide sources for this:

• Matt Hatter being called the most demented (the title very debatable, but he has be called that on one of DC's bios)
• Ra's acting in a bond villain fashion.
• the riddler not reappearing from 1948 until the late 60's.

and whatever questionable afirmation anyone thinks is needing a quote. (or we can always use words like arguably, debatable, questionably, etc). If is looking opinionated I agree the prose should change. But only with better more accurate prose avoiding rudeness.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 21:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

t-man and dyslexic agnostic

please dongt let your diffrences erupt into an edit war, why not discuss it here insted? Benon 21:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't want an edit war, agreed. I would ask T-man to explain why his changes are better for this page. As it stands right now the page gives a good summary of the primary enemies, and then the lists of major and minor villains follows. To great the larger writeups T-man proposes just makes the page more confusing. Plus, much iof the new material is (a) poorly written, (b) simply opinion, and (c) in some cases wrong or at least unverified, and better left to the individual villain write-ups below or even on that villians own page. Dyslexic agnostic 21:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

ok i have invited the t-man to the dicussion, i hope this can be worked out to a conseus everybodys happy with Benon 21:57, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

ok neitehr of you two should revert anyore or youll fall outside the 3rr rule, and im let me asure you they will block either of you

Benon 22:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

T-man comments (lengthy)

Ok, I'm not hte syntax expert, but I sure know the Batman mythos. This prose is a reduction of mine:

Batman's foes form one of the most distinctive rogues galleries in comics. In the 1930s and 1940s some of the most familiar Batman villains evolved. First among these is the Joker, considered by many to be Batman's number one nemesis. (considered??? does this guy even reads the comic? they say so in the comic books text, you don't need fans opinion)

Other key villains include Catwoman, the Penguin, Two-Face, the Riddler, Scarecrow, Hugo Strange and the Mad Hatter. Other well known villains emerged in the next three decades. During the 1950s and 1960s, stalwarts Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy made their debut This is just listing in prose. This is the same:

• Other villains:
  • Catwoman
  • Penguin
  • Two-face
  • Riddler
  • Scarecrow
  • Hugo Strange
  • Mad Hatter
• 50's:
  • Mr. Freeze (stealwart foe)
• 60's:
  • Poison Ivy (also inconditional foe)

And that's not even in cronological or any order at all!

alongside Clayface, a resurrected one-off concept from 1940 (there are 6 resurrections, we have to be more specific).

In the 1970s, new Batman villains adopt influences from horror and realistic crime fiction (secret agent films), first with Man-Bat (unlike Batman, a real human/animal hybrid) and later with the master criminal Ra's Al Ghul and his daughter Talia, the first villains to learn Batman's identity. (very ok!!!)

The less famous but equally charismatic Ventriloquist, KGBeast, Black Mask and Killer Croc emerged in the 1980s.(the dude forgot the *'s again for the prose listing)

More common criminals, such as the Gotham mob leader Carmine Falcone were also added to the villain lineup (a minor villain with good hierarchy. He is in the lineup, but not in the recurring one...What happened with Thorne anyways, he was recurring for 2 decades and the animated series)

The 1990s were notorious for the introduction of the Joker's assistant, Harley Quinn (with the cartoon, and not the comic books, as source) (the cartoon?? shouldn't this say: "(who appeared first on Batman: The Animated Series"?)

and Bane, the only villain to physically humble Batman. Hush and a new Red Hood are the most famous inductees in the 2000s, due to their connections to Batman's past (...*hush, *red hood ...and red hood I is joker and from the 80's, the phrase would be "a second Red Hood")

Other thing... At the begining this reduction by self declared deletionst Dyslexyc, didn't even got the facts right, he wrothe things as if bane and harley were from the 80's... And that was no typo! He didn't believe when I told him they were from the 90's!! That's because he ignores much DC stuff and yet, he edits deleting stuff in several DC pages; as you can verify in the middle edits of this page and here--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 22:43, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Good thing I've 3 blind reverts to go, since I never do, I always try to fit more to the oposite opinion by copiediting. --T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 22:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Benon reply

having consulted with an admin neither of you have any revrts left, and you dont have to revert times anyway we could have alredy blocked both of you, but insed we want to try and thrash a conseus out Benon 22:51, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Dyslexic reply

As usual, T-man uses a personal attack on me rather than defend his work. If there is an error in a fact, FIX IT. The issue is not errors, it is format. And T-Man's format and syyle is horrendous. Nothing he just said is (a) intelligible, or (b) useful in explaining why his substantial rewrites are preferable. The intro should IDENTIFY key villains, not go into detail on each one. That is what the rest of the article is for, and beyond that, any given villians own wiki. Dyslexic agnostic 22:52, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

you insult me on the summaries, I defended my work already. Why are you so synical? Your syntax is kind of better, but you don't know this stuff and I already prove it. That makes you commit mistakes like sayin bane and harley were from the 80's and then changing it to harley is from the 80's. And that "If there is an error in a fact, FIX IT" line I put in your page first.

Besides, most of the well written stuff of your version isn't yours those came from people who copyedited your stuff. If you check the summaries you can see that you are the one calling me names and insulting my writing, which I already told it might have grammar or synatax mistakes since the beginning. I even asked you to copyedit or mark my errors yourself the material and copypaste the stuff in your page.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:47, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

benon

maybe t-man may benefit from the following links in that case

How_to_write_a_great_article and this one has all the wiki syntax: How_to_edit_a_page

actually i'm trying to follow this structure: wikipedia: the perfect article--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

yep thats a good page too :-)

benon

please please dyslexic do not try and lower the tone here i want to keep this wp:civil

I am being perfectly civil, Benon. I just don;t see why we have to follow T-Man around. It's like taking your dog or pet armadillo for a walk... clean up after him. Dyslexic agnostic 23:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

tha's right perfectly civil...--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

t-mans comments

having had a third opnion by someone with more knowldge of the subject, what t-mans posted is factually correct even if as pointed out by the editor in need of some copy-editing Benon 23:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

some copy-editing later

an editor came up with this:

Alongside Clayface, a resurrected one-off concept from 1940 (there are 6 resurrections in total).

In the 1970s, new Batman villains begin to adopt influences from horror and realistic crime fiction (secret agent films), first with Man-Bat (who unlike Batman, is a real human/animal hybrid) and the later with the master criminal Ra's Al Ghul and his daughter Talia, the first villains to learn Batman's identity. (very ok!!!)

The less famous villan, but often equally charismatic Ventriloquist, KGBeast, Black Mask and Killer Croc emerged iduring the 1980s.

More common criminals, such as the Gotham mob leader Carmine Falcone were also added to the villain lineup

The 1990s were notorious for the introduction of the Joker's assistant, Harley Quinn who appeard exclusivley in the cartoon series.

Bane, was the only villain to physically humble Batman. Hush and a new Red Hood are the most famous inductees in the 2000s, due to their connections to Batman's past

Benon 23:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

T-Man put his crap back... I will leave it because unlike T-Man, I have a job, and am going to the gym. I fixed some typos and grammatical errors, but the POV and moronic comments are too numerous to fix easily. The great wikipedia project... destroyed by the dim-witted. Dyslexic agnostic 23:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

At least is the POV of somebody ho actually reads the comic...not from some... well I already said this above. Cut the insults, please.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Armando, you don't read the comic, you only watch the cartoon. That's why you keep insisting on Rupert Thorne's importance (when he is secondary to "Roman" Falcone and "Boss" Maroni, only gaining notoriety in the 1990s through use in B:TAS) and why you keep ignoring KGBeast as a main 1980s villain. Your edits are full of personal opinions that can't be properly sourced, use words that do not belong on a proper encyclopedic article, or are simply wrong (and when someone corrects them, you just put them back in). Specifically, I'm talking about this:

The highly developed and "colorful" profiles on many on this list is one of the elements that makes the Batman mythos so appealing.

Appealing to whom? How?

The other one, Catwoman, could be considered the "second worst enemy of Batman". While she isn't a threat to society, as most of Batman's enemies are, she's still too dangerous; and one of her most dangerous feature is being at the top of Batman's list love interests.

Dangerous? Out of all of Batman's rogues gallery, she's the only who isn't a lunatic and who doens't harbour a desire to kill Batman. Now that she knows his identity, that'll become even less an issue.

The Penguin has always been fighting for his place as one of the most insisting and recurring of the Bat-villains. Two-Face and even the Riddler (created later in 1948, but not popularized until Frank Gorshing interpretation in the later 60's on TV) have been competing as well, but the Penguin has amounted the most appearances out of three.

Competing for what? And can you provide an appearance count for either of the three characters?

Hugo Strange, as well as the Scarecrow, self proclaimed "the God of Fear", and the Mad Hatter, said to be '"Batman's most demented enemy", might have not gotten as many appearances as the previously mentioned, but they've almost gotten as personal and influential as the Joker

If they have less appearances, and are thus less popular, how can they be as influential as the main nemesis?

The first of the unfortunate list of characters called Clayface has also been there almost from the beginning.

The first Clayface was a one-off villain. When Matt Hagen debuted, the writers resurrected a concept that had been dormant for over 20 years.

Not as many well known villains emerged in the next three decades, but some of those became indispensable to the mythos.

Needs rephrasing. Indispensable? Why? They're just more characters. The more characters you have the more dispensable some of them are, as they won't be use in favour of other characters.

hot botanical scientist, Poison Ivy.

"Hot"? Are you sexually attracted to Ivy?

insane Mafiosi leaders Black Mask and the Ventriloquist's puppet, Scar-face, emerged in the 1980s and have shared good popularity among fans and writers ever since

Black Mask goes through periods of popularity mingled with periods of obscurity. And Scar-face is a split personality of the Ventriloquist. It's not the puppet that's a character.

Joker's own bimbo lover, Harley Quinn

First the "hot" villain, now the "bimbo" villain. What's next?

Bane was coined "the man who broke Batman" after he beat him and took the city during his break-through in best seller Knightfall.

Can we have some sales figures to back this up, please?

Ra's Al Ghul, the Riddler, the Scarecrow, Catwoman and Talia are also no strangers to Batman's identity; but they haven't acted on personal level yet.

Are you sure YOU have read the comics, Armando? Ra's al-Ghul once removed Batman's parents bodies from their graves and threatened to throw them in a Lazarus Pit. I'd say that's pretty personal. Catwoman only knows Batman's identity because he told her, and with Selina's protegé Holly taking over the Catwoman mantle it becomes a moot point. Talia invaded the Batcave and stole Batman's contingency plans to defeat the JLA, allowing Ra's al-Ghul to almost kill the group, and made the JLA lose confidence in Batman. In a final analysis, this just becomes a list turned into mangled text. As it stands, the article explains nothing about Batman's villains in any detail, which would be inappropriate anyway, as they all have their own articles, and anything important is already covered there. So my proposal is to turn this into a List article, and remove the long, cumbersome and confuse textdump. Pc13 00:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Not to come in the middle of the discussion, but as I posted above, I was wondering about the necessity of the "History" section. We've already got a good introduction paragraph, so I guess my question is what purpose does this section serve? It seems to just repeat information and (as I said above) makes it sound like the Batman villains are in some bizarre sort of footrace to be Batman's "worst enemy." --Gillespee 00:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be simpler to just say something like "most of Batman's major villains have been around since the 1940s" and maybe a little bit about who came in when?--Gillespee 00:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I did a major copy-edit on the History section. I'm still very unsure if the section is needed at all (it still seems rather redundant to me) but since I'm not sure of the consensus, I thought making it a little easier to understand (with some POV revisions also) in the meantime was a good thing. Comments?--Gillespee 05:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

personal attacks

it is not nessasry to stoop to the level of a personal attack so please don't do, i dont want to but anymore personal attacks and i will be asking admins to impose sancations on either of you Benon 00:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Benon, it's not a personal attack to say that T-Man's edits are bad, a waste of everyone's time, and that he only knows the animated series, not the comics. These are obvious facts. They affect our ability to edit and spend time on other important matters. Dyslexic agnostic 02:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the first 2 aren't facts but rather opinions, and it is a personal attack to say someone's edits are bad and waste everyone's time... --Pentasyllabic 03:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that kind of lying is not good for anyone (Dyslexics). You know, you know I'm fairly expert on both mediums. Not knowing bane is from the 90's and claiming you know the comics, is like claiming you know american politics and think there has only been one president named George Bush. Your lack on the basics tells on you. Besides, there are other ways of personal attacks, aside the insults. Saying such lies is one, unnecesary adjetives to describe my prose (which I admit, for the 100th time, is not that good) is other. Even what I'm doing right know could be considered as one PA, if you are too strict. The only personal atack, if you will, was when I did the critisism on the incomplete intro, although I wasn't directly talking about you and I didn't call you moron or something like you like to call me on the summaries or public disscusion pages like this one. When I called you cynical, it wasn't an insult either, because you seem shameless to tell such lies as you did just above this words. I do own most of the important Batman, DCU, Superman, GL, Flash and JLA titles, series, hc versions, and crossovers from the 80's to now, and then some of the 70's, and even most Wisard issues, if you want me to show some creds, but the average guy here owns more. So I do know what I talking about, and you did see me make this pictire, so you are lying. And is not like I enjoy you following me to whatever page I go, talking to whatever people I talk and trying to explain that I'm not the bad guy. What kind of person are you that you dedicate so much time to harass somebody that is talking about topics you don't even care. You said you don't watch the animated show...half your contribs are fron topocs related to them! And only becouse you follow me there, as you can check on those pages history pages. I realy don't understand you. --T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 03:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Trivia lesson

Ok, I’m going to enjoy this… Here we go, amateur. You can reply where I indicated between paregraph so that the disscusion can be more organized:

1. Rupert Thorne was a recurring villain in a Kingpin fashion from the 2nd half of the 70's until the Crisis came. Then he was forgotten and then saved by Timm in the 90's for the animated series. Falcone is just a recurring name Frank Miller and Jeph Loeb use when he needs to mention Gotham City mafia. Carmine, was never a lead villain like Rupert has been. If you accuse me of just watching the animated series (which I deny) I can acuse you of just getting exited because of the Carmine appearance in the last movie. Maroni is just a support guy for Two-Face's story, as Tony Zucco is for Robin's (who is the nerd defending minor characters and bragging about how he knows nick names everybody knows, like "Boss" and "roman" , now? heh, heh, heh)--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The "second half" of the 70s you claim is more like a single story arc (Strange Apparitions) that ran for 8 issues from 1977 to 1978. Thorne returned two and a half years later, in late 1981 (in the Strange Case of Rupert Thorne), but that was his final appearance, and the story ended in mid-1982. For such a "major" crime boss, I'm surprised he hasn't returned in over 20 years. He was used in B:TAS because Bruce Timm didn't like Frank Miller's continuity implant of Carmine Falcone. In addition, Thorne was portrayed as a notorious crime boss in the cartoon, while in the comic he was a corrupt city official, and his criminal connections weren't a matter of public record until he was arrested. The cartoon version used Falcone as a character template, not the original Thorne.

Yeah, I was indeed talking about strange apparitions and sequels. I don't have the sequels, but in the story arc he was almost as protagonist as Strange himself. Way more than the kind of protagonism the roman and the falcones have in miller and loeb's stories. He wasn't just some politician, he was a member of the tabbacconists' club, (it's membership includes the most powerful men of Gotham), he runs(ed) GC council (chairman), some said he runs Gotham, and he was called "Boss" Thorne. Actually, he seemed more powerful and manipulative in these stories than in the A. Series; he messed with Dr. Phosphorus (2-face fashion), Batman, GC mayor and maipulated the city, Gordon, Strange, the Joker (in a way also with the Penguin) and Silver St. Cloud. The story arc influenced the series creator as well as tim burton (Grissom is very Thorne-like, now that I think so. Btw, I heard RT is going to be on the next film)... But you are right, maybe is not worth mentioning. I just wanted an examle of a different kind of villain. And use him as an example of that horror, crime fiction line someone added to put him in context as you asked.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

2. every single comment can be sourced. Appealing to whom, for example is the easiest comment to source if you want to waste your time like that. Just check how many batman titles are published every single month and how many people buys against any other superhero's books. You will learn that monthly, the amount of baman books sold is good enough to call the mythos appealing. That's why there are 6 motion pictures, 2 animated series (without jl and superfriends and even scooby-doo appearances by joker, riddler, scarecrow and penguin) and, live action show and several internet about batman, his foes and his mythos. That's why the mythos is so appealing.

It's the choice of words that isn't appropriate. "So appealing" is to broad a statement to include. And I can tell you that, with the notable exception of All-Star (and the main Batman title, which has been decreasing back to its former level when the Jim Lee-drawn "Hush" arc ended), Batman comics usually don't seel more than 35,000-37,000 copies a month on the direct market (compare to about 55,000 for JSA and 80,000 for JLA).

You forgot about Hush, but what's your point? the hero ans his mythos is one of the most popular end of story. Ask anybody, even your mom know who the penguin or the ridder are. No, seriously, I said "your mom" because moms usually don't know about comics and scy-fi from my experience... I couldent resist the pun, though. Sorry about it. I owe you one, hah, hah, mate.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

3. Catwoman is dangerous. Following your logic maybe mr zsasz would be batman's worst enemy. Being a killer doesn’t make an enemy notable as his protagonism and his importance in the mind of Batman and Batman readers, writers and creators does. Knowing Batman's identity and not being completely on the good side makes her even more important. You seem new to the comics’ world, do you really think Catwoman is going to be Holly for so long? Context, PC, context. Selina has been a main character for more than 60 years, I’m talking about all those years. Not about the comic book you just bought on the corner store last week, my "mate". Following again your line of thought, it not worth saying Nixon was a president because he is dead. We couldn’t say Adam West was Batman because that show is of. And you called my ways childish…

You still fail to address Catwoman's state of mind. With the exception of the camp 1950s and 60s (when she had a strange obsession with cat-related things), Catwoman has always been the only Batman costumed villain who is mentally sane and hasn't tried to kill him (or anybody else, since she is only a cat-burglar). Considering the identity revelation is a fairly recent thing (and that the Earth-2 Catwoman never tried to kill Batman - in fact, she married him) I fail to see on what grounds she can be a dangerous foe.

I think I originally said danggerous because of her fighting skills. She is no lady shiva, but I bet she'd beat the hell out of me... Althogh I think I'd rather enjoy it. A character or a villain doesn't have to be a killer to be dangerous. A villain doen't have to be dangerous to be protagonist, for that matter. Take Gollum as an example. But if you want to take off the word dangerous is kind of ok. But we should come up with a better description then.

4. I think you might be confused. We are talking about Batman. You might be thinking of some other superhero. In batman comics bets are that, if you buy a batman comic from any year at random, or watch any episode form any batman series, also at random, The Joker, Catwoman, the Penguin, the Riddler or Two-face are going to be the main villain. If you get the croc, or scar-face, the mad-hatter you are loki, and if you catch you hero the "Roman" you are really, really a lottery winner. By the way there it’s something called figurative speech, and it means to compare situations, I dunno if they told you. They are not literary on a race.

You used the word "competing". I honestly can't see what figure of speech you're using. If you don't know how to use figures of speech in English, don't use them. The Penguin's and Two-Face's modus operandi are completely distinct from that of the Joker's or the Riddler's. Unlike these two, Penguin and Dent are professional criminals and usually try to stay below Batman's radar, while the Joker uses flashy schemes that attract attention to easily and the Riddler actually wants to get caught.

a. what does m.o. have to do with popularity??? b. The Penguinhad flashy schemes 'til the mid 90s. (remember, you accusated me of not reading stuff older than NML)Competing for the title doesn't meen they are literately on a race. the version I changed the last time fail to express it correctly, since the penguin and two-face, have been a presence since they were introduced, but the Riddler, a step less important, i'd say, didn't started to be constant until the 60s. I couldn't figure out a good phrase to expres that.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

5. Hugo, the Scarecrow and the Hatter are influential because, whenever they appear, the story goes on a deeper lever exploring Batman's mind and messing with it. Those characters are useful tools when a writer wants to analyze Batman. Besides, I don't know if you are capable of using your imagination, I’m sure you can, it’s an indispensable tool for getting into the story when you read, but if someone messes with your mind on the level they have messed with Batman’s , that'll probably leave some ugly emotional scars on you... good thing he is the Batman. Therefore, they do get to be influential in a way. Thinking they don't get to appear as much as the five previous, therefore they are not influential is just wrong--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

First, you use figure of speech on an extraneous element, then you shift to in-story elements. Make up your mind, mate. Either you move Strange, the Scarecrow and the Hatter to the role of minor villains to conform with the first paragraph, or explain that the main villains' M.O.s are inconsistent with the "honour" of being the main Batman villain. And you still fail to address the KGBeast, one of the most dangerous villains Batman has ever faced, just because he never appeared in the cartoon, yet he has had more comic appearances than Rupert Thorne.

Well what i did originally, a structure that even most editors used, was group the 40s villains. Catwoman and the Joker as the most popular and personal. Penguin, 2face and riddler as villains with still big popularity (top 3,4 & 5, probbably). Hugo, scarecrow and the hatter as the villains related with mind controling and regular popular (about top 12-ish, 8-9-ish, and 10-11-ish, I'd say). Then, after saying something those (the 8) are the big shots. I mentioned Basil, which is not that importang, but is the first Clayface, thoug. I like KGBeast, but I've never seen him as a big shot after 10 nights, which is among the top Batman stories I read the most. KGBeast is on JLU.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

6. I put the first Clayface after mentioning that the previous are important. Don't make me doubt of your reading skills. How ever Basil Karlo has been important on and off and he started the Clayface concept and we have to point that. You talked about context to me, marking the appearance of the 1st Clayface, as I did, is context.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Basil Karlo appeared a single time in 1940. It took two decades for the concept to be reused again with a different character. Karlo was only brought back into regular continuity with the Mud Pack arc, and by the time there were four different Clayfaces running around.

I know I put him because he is the first CF AFTER saying the above are among the most popular--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

7. I could doubt words I used like hot, sexy, bimbo and many other, that I once and again asked everyone to edit if they don't happen to like them. But I think is safe to say their creators intentions were to make those female characters look like that. Didn't you notice the curves in the drawings? I dunno about you but for most guys that could be a hot bimbo. In both comics and series Harley has been portrayed as a slut, sleeping with her teachers for a better note, killing his lover without caring and even was hinted as a playful lesbian in Hush. If you add that to the fact that sometimes likes to pretend she is stupid (I'm not a stupid blonde my hair was black) and humiliates herself to try to get Joker’s attention, you get a bimbo. She is a hot Lewinsky (I agree asking you to use your imagination on this one is too much and grouse) to Joker’s Clinton. But I agree there can be a better “more encyclopedic” words... then again this is the only encyclopedia where you can find all the ways on the English or any language to name you One-eye snake, but I bet you feel great when you write a phrase with a pentasyllabic word like "it's not encyclopedic", don't yah’?--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

No, I didn't notice the curves in the drawings. I prefer my women real. If you see the drawing of a beautiful woman and think "hot bimbo", I dread to think how you treat women in real life. Quinzel isn't a bimbo, she, like the Joker, is insane. Congratulations on the use of the word pentasyllabic, by the way.

She isn't as the joker at all. She is in love with him and imitates him to get his aproval and attention. She is sluty+hinted lesbo+the hair kind of dumb comment's she says+portrayed as hot= bimbo. But you are right there are better words you could have sustituted the term with.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It has been a fun massacre to dedicate to you some words in order to explain you why you seem to be the one not putting words in context, and the one not paying attention to comics, after all. I love talking about trivia. Good thing wikipedia specifies on the perfect article we can do pages about trivial details. I could keep going on and on all night. I owe you something about Ra’s but I think I’ll call it the night. Please read more carefully and edit instead of blind reversing and complaining, it’d seem to me like you really enjoy writing on discussion pages rather than in the articles. I like both. While you wrote what was wrong about the words I wrote in my prose on the discussion page, you could have just replaced them with better adjectives on the article. But I’d seem to me that you need to buy older comics. Batman and his enemies were not created last week, you know.

Likewise. In fact, your attempt at being a self-styled Batman expert only showed that you need to buy comics that were written before "Cataclysm" and "No Man's Land". Your ignorance of the origins of Rupert Thorne and the Clock King, and of the existence of KGBeast are proof of that. Your texts shouldn't be kept. I fail to see what you are attempting. It isn't an evolution of Batman's enemies throughout time, nor an explanation of the relationship between Batman and his villains. It's a list disguised as a text and full of personal opinions, therefore making the article into two lists (under the headings of "History" and "Descriptions"). If you want to expand anything on each character's development, behaviour and history, they all have their own articles, but those articles cannot possibly be moved here Pc13 13:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I started from the Death of lex Luthor, and have been incrementing my collection with newer and older issues according to the importance of the issues to DCU or the rewiews on wizard internet, etc. I don't ignore that, actually, as I said I own, the hc titled Strange Aparitions and 10 nights otk, and I was the one who wrote that the Clock king was revamped with a new name in B:TAS. If you don't believe me I can send you a scan of the page you ask showing you the finguer you ask (no pun intended, hahaha). I don't want to expand any of those thescriptions more than a line or 2, and the ones in the list more than a paragraph. The minor characters should be even shorter. This page shoud be descriptive, the history tries to put them in context, but you are totally right when you say it's not perfect, that's why I've been asking you to to improve them if your English is that good (Not that I think it isn't)--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

References

there From and editorial on Catwoman: The Visual Guide to the Femme Fatale by Scotty Beatty Adult/High School–With images taken from the original DC Comics books, this montage spans more than 60 years of the femme fatale's career, beginning with her first appearance as "The Cat" in Batman #1. In classic DK style, each oversized spread highlights a different aspect of Catwoman's world, including family and friends, weaponry, her crimes, homes, modes of transport, her catsuit, and her on-again/off-again relationship with Batman. Also included is a six-page time line that covers, in depth, all the major events of her career. (...) Karen T. Bilton, Somerset County Library, Bridgewater, NJ Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. --T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 22:15, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

T-man, looks like you have found some good reference materials to add to Catwoman. I encourage you to implement some of that information there... perhaps providing that level of detail in thas page is not the best idea. (See how friendly I am being to you?) Dyslexic agnostic 23:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm relatively an "expert" on this area. I'm 100% on what I wrote, but I've been leaving the sourcing to the others. I realize I risk of deletionists if I don't do it myself.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:38, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

In the past T-man, you've often championed the cause of lists over boring prose. I can't unsterstand why you now seem so eager to add more prose to a list article.--Gillespee 23:49, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

There must be an intro. No more than a couple of lines per main villain. PC13, is right R Thorne, athough important, might not be fit. Only influential villains. And no more than 5 lines per villain in the list. 3 if he is a minor. That's my critteria... Please notice I'm not trying negotiate. If so I'd have started with bigger numbers of lines.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 00:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there must be an intro, and to be honest I'm pretty happy with how the extra couple paragraphs have turned out now (though I was originally against them when I first read them.) I was just trying to point out that there was an introduction paragraph before you added more prose to a list article. But like I said, I'm pretty happy with it now that I've stopped to think about it more.--Gillespee 05:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

That's why we have thiferent pov's. I see this article not as a list, but as an article putting the bat-villains in context. I'll try to use adjetive to achieve that, though.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 05:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Zsasz

I think there could be a mistake in stating Zsasz's name as Charles, maybe this is mixed up with The Question Vic Sage's true name: Charles Victor Zsasz.

Killer moth

I added him not for his importance, which now lacks, but because of symbolism. He was created in 1951 and broke the stereotype of previous villains. He had fighting skills and was not a thief. After that I recall hearing the 50s were slow, but villains strarted to have fighting skills or powers: Mr. Freeze, Clayface 2, and P Ivy.

KMoth was some sort of anti-batman, if Gordon called batman to stop crime, the mobsters called the KMoth to stop the police. There was also a Moth-mobile and Moth-signal. That's why I wrote mobsters' champion. Which is kind of a key adjetive for putting the paragraph in context but can be improved if it is not ok with the rest of you, guys.

Mr. Freeze name kind of gives away the nature of his powers. And erasing "ice themed" also makes seem more important from my opinion.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 05:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that Killer Moth is not symbolic (and as you pointed out T-Man, not important) enough to make the intro (why not add info about him on his almost empty page if he's so important?) Unlike the riddler line though which I know is much better suited to a different place than the intro, I'm not as sure. I await group consensus.--Gillespee 05:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

He is NOT important (nowdays), but he is a fine example of how the 50 started with the creation of SUPER-villains. Most of the descriptions of the kind of villains each era created I did, took some inspiration from some points of McCloud in understanding Comics, and Alan Moores eras' descriptive comic Supreme. I'm not sure about the late 90's though. Luck-Up (1995) and Harley were introduced then. So for now I used the "foes from BTAS were introduced and revamped" for late 90s' paragraph (since the grim era stopped in mid-90s). I now realize I can be more descriptive by addresing the era rather than by putting some adjetives for each villain. You can go to this page if you need to get the picture [1], but I think you already know this stuff better. Observe that the same kind of changes apply to superman and the rest of the heroes. --T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 06:43, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

How can I put mobsters'champion in better words. I need a good description to emphacize the SUPERvillain point (that's why he had a cape, tights, a super car and a signal...he was one of the first supervillain stereotypes as we know (1951), not only from batman tittles but from comics. The fifties was the era of the super-powered: in supermans case Lex and the prankster from the 40s, and Brainiac and Mxy from the 50s is kind of equivalent. If you merge GA versions of flash and GL villains with the silver age, you get the same. The first super powered came MOSTLY from the 50s (there are Grundy, the Icicle and the Shade on the other hand, but they dont have the tights look, though)

2 things

• Catwoman is also considered the first femme fatale on comics. maybe we can fit that info.

• Maybe it'd be good to erase the short descriptions on the list below and leave just the names. I don't se the need for a mini-bio with a link to the actual bio. Maybe we can reduce them to a line with a theri fisical features and abilities if a reader is looking for a villain whose name don't remember.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 08:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting that you're interested in expanding the introduction while shortening the individual entries (by interesting, I mean confusing.) As it stands, I still think the Riddler and Ra's comments are a little much for the History section (there's more about al Ghul in the History than in his list entry!) I'm not sure about the BTAS series paragraph either.--Gillespee 13:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

That's because you can identify him on his entry with few words. But in the history section I was rather identifying what makes him a different kind of villain. The important thing there is to show how the crative criteria was changing (or not). The riddler is a fine example of a villain that was created early, forgoten and then revamped. Hugo Strange, the Scarecrow, the Mad Hatter, Clayface, Deadshot and the Clock King and even the name "Nightwing" shared the same luck. I prefer to say that on the history than on his list entry, which I think it'd be better as a description of most recognizable features in order for the reader to identify each sharacter in short. It's called history, to me, this is where time details go. We are not talking about the BTAS descriptiong here, which wouldn't fit, but rather about how it contributed to DC regular universe, especifically to the Enemies of Batman lineup, by creating and revamping characters.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 15:41, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Deadshot

If the name is the same we'd need to see if he changed uniform on earth ii... but whatever, it's not that important.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 15:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

ra's

Eliminated the challenging foe part to explein better why he is different. If someone could do that in better an less words would be nice.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 16:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Help me here:

But remeber: there I'm the boss until I release it here. hahaha! :P --T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 05:21, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

It's really superfluous. I think it's unnecessary. WesleyDodds 06:13, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

You'll see... --T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 04:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC) (thanks for the kind words, though) ¬_¬'

We need to put Arkham I context

Any idea how to?--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 04:00, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Joe Chill?

Uh, why is he considered a major enemy of Batman? He's definitely the catalyst that drove Bruce Wayne to be Batman, but he's by no means a consistent enemy, and was removed from Batman's origin post-Zero Hour.--Toffile 02:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Because of popularity, I guess. His name is probabbly more popular than Killer Croc, Firefly or KGBeast. I've always considered popularity for this kind of situations. For example, strictly in comics, the Clock King is just the caped villain with the clock head that always pops up among dc supervillains crowds, lets say he has a Where is Waldo sort of popularity. Then you can add the people who know about him because of the Animated Series. That series get so much respect because of its break through psychological explorations of the characters, and that episode, besides 'mad as a hatter', 'heart of ice' and 'read my lips' stand up as the most impacting episodes in that sense. But what finishes to built his popularity is that non-comic readers or animated series watchers know the character because he appeared in the 60s show. That alouds even soccer moms to kind of remember him. Everybody watched that show. At least from the people that lived its era to the generation xers, that grew up while the re-runs were still a popular thing. So you get, comic readers that have spoted him frequently, plus people that watched one of the two B:TAS episodes or the one of JLU, plus people knowing him because of the 60s show. Take the KGBeast in contrast, one kickass storyarc, and then he becomed muscle to back up mobsters or even batman. That's not much. In this case, he is´popular because the quality of 'the 10 nights of the beast' made those isues good sellers and therefore popular. He is surely important, but only comic book readers know about him. Everybody knows Joe Chill, at least as the figure that killed batman's parents changing his destiny. The name might not be as popular as the character himself, but he is very known. Even if you stick with Burton's version, there was a nameless coward goon with Jack Napier (lyterarely nameless, he wasn't credited as Joe Chill).--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 07:41, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Article size

By the way, is it my idea or the descriptions on the listings are getting bigger. This might come as a surprise for some, but I do think There is no need for those descriptions at all. Readers can just click on the names. For all I care we could erase the description and list the villains on tables comparing # of appearences, actors who have played/voiced them, appearences in other media, and stuff. What's the point of writting the same info twice?--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 07:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't really agree with you, Armando T. The short summaries are useful to avoid the need to click on each villain. They should, however, be kept to a bare minimum. A simple list? That's not what wikipedia is, imho. Dyslexic agnostic 11:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

How about augmenting the contents of foreign articles with the Batman-villians-article?

Well, I just scanned and skimmed through the "Batman-villains" articles in other languages which this page links to. They seem to provide some interesting information - I don't know it for sure though, since I am not capable of reading those languages, except for Spanish which I speak a smattering of. However, especially the extensive Dutch (? not quite sure which language this is, I can only read the personal name of characters, issue numbers and artists' names - however it is very detailled an mentions some crooks I've never even heard of [Dagger? Polka Dot Man?]) article contains data I reckon we should integrate into the villains-articles. So if someone is qualified to translate what our colleagues have accumulated I really think the article could draw some benefit from that.

I heard of Polka dot Man. Same name in English, but that's all I know.--T-man, the wise 15:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

"Major" enemies of Batman?

I'm not sure what is meant by the title "major enemy" in this article. Is it supposed to recognize fan popularity, participation in major storylines, or just number of appearances? I think you would be hard-pressed to find a lot of Batman fans who consider Anarky, Blockbuster, Cluemaster, Clock King, the General, Killer Moth, the KGBeast, or Man-Bat to be "major enemies of Batman." I mean, c'mon, Clock King? --Halloween jack 08:58, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Somebody put them there and I agree with him, I knew Clock king even before I read comics and most major enemies. More than that, even before B:TAS. So that's popularity. Anarky, KGBeast, Blockbuster,and the Generaral are dangerous, influential and have had several appearences. Killer Moth losed some popularity in the 90s, prior to that. Man-bat is still huge. Maxie Zeus is goofy, but very powerful and influential, he is also fairly popular. Cluemaster for example is one of those I always heard of but I never saw a single picture of him until a couple of years. He is a loser, but unlike Maxie he isn't neither powerful nor popular. The Batman version of Maxie is very good, probbably one of the few character that that series portraits cool. Except the Cluemaster and the General I learned about the rest of your list within my first year of reading comics (14 years a I read frequency of 12-15 issues a month I'd say, although I'm sure that even you could turn out to be more experienced than me).

Maybe we should agree on some parameters to decide wich villains qualify as major enemies. Something like power and influence + number of appearences + other media appearences.--T-man, the wise 15:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

After the events of "Face to Face" took place, I think the Great White Shark has earned his place under "Major enemies", unless you are waiting to see what is done with him next? User:ClemsonChuck

My persnal take is that Anarky, Cluemaster, Clock King, the General, Killer Moth, and Maxie Zeus should all be considered minor villains.

Great White Shark should stay minor also IMO. If he becomes a recurring villain, I'd say there's hope there for him as a major villain, until then he's still had relatively few appearances.--Gillespee 23:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I back the Great White part. The otheres are not very threatening villains, but they are famous for a reason (ecept Cluemaster)--T-man, the wise 21:01, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Killer Moth, minor? HAH! He ran rampant for 40 years before some jerk decided he should be a loser (although he had the most cofidence of any sane Batman villain) and made him Charaxes, an awful decision I am sure they now regret. Anyhow, Killer Moth is making appearances everwhere (Teen Titans, The Batman, comics). He is anything, but a minor villain.

Picture work.

Page at Picture of Joker's Reckoning

Great picture, I labeled all the people in the picture, unfortunatly the two in the upper right eludes me. The woman could be Lady Shiva, but looks wrong, the man really has me blank. It's just such a great picture that the only thing missing is who is who.

The man is Ra's Al Ghul and the woman is his daughter, Talia. And you are right, the picture is great. The best thing about it is that Ross captured the attitude and feelings towards Batman of almost every villain. Batmans mind is only focused on stopping threads, the Joker is all about mocking that and testing batman's boundaries, he doesn't care what happens and he has respect for nothing. Harley & Ivy do the same but in a less personal way. That's because they hate him but also because they also feel atracted to him. They both, each one with her style (Harley is fun and sluty while PI is more like a forbiden apple), use their sensuality as part of the teasing. The Riddler and the Scarecrow (both Legionaries, by the way) see Batman as a challenge. The Riddler thins of Batman as his intelectual match and main rival while the Scarecrow wants to find out the inner fears that can crush Batman's sprit.

The Penguin wants him out of the picture. He wants the glory and attention for him. It doesn't show here, but to me, he is Donald Duck meets Daffy Duck, Erik Cartman and Lex Luthor. I love all the impersnations he has had so far, but my favourite is still the one by Burguess Meredith. His Penguin was all about the attention, very moody, temperamental, rude, clowny, frustrated and yet clever. Two face is just watching. The thing about him (to me) is that, even though in the 90s there was a tendency to see him as the "second worst enemy of Batman" among the writers (mostly because of his name and I consider that stupid), he doesn't have a very personal relationship with Batman as a villain. To him Batman is sort of like the police, just doing what he does. Two-face is all about the coin, nothing personal. He probably hates Batman, but that's a business thing. He is not obsessed about the Batman that much, he only wants him out of the way like most mobsters. Mr. Freeze also see Batman as a thread to his personal affairs, so an opportunity to kill the Bat is great.

Catwoman is just watching, she is atracted to him. She wouldn't try to kill Batman, she enjoys the chase and putting obstacles in front of the bat. She doesn't mind the villains or the fight, she know he will survive this obstacle and then the game will go on. It's times like this, when Batman is busy with an obstacle, she can go steeling. Talia, on the other hand, worries about his loved one, she looks kind of impotent to help him. She is like a rose of the desert. Beautiness surviving in a tough enviroiment. His father isn't even watching, he has his mind on bigger things. He, like Catwoman knows Batman, is above that bunch of nuts just like he is. Batman doesn't like Ra's vision, that's why he is trying to take Talia apart from him.

That's the way I see every villain, I think that picture is a true portrait of all of them. That's also why batman has the best Rogues gallery, they are not only gimmicks they all have well defined personalities, attitudes and styles as well as a well defined relationship with Batman. --T-man, the wise 02:06, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Major Bat Villains.

I feel that KGBeast should become a major Bat Foe because he is every bit equal to Batman in every way...

Michael 21:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Does this article accomplish anything?

So. . . this article is now the old introduction for the list. Is there any purpose for having it here? I don't. Comments?Gillespee 05:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

At this point I'd advocate redirecting the page to List of Batman villains. WesleyDodds 11:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

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