Talk:Paul Hindemith

Photo

The photo on this page is believed to be copyrighted. It may be considered for fair use but I don't believe it is "open to the public domain." This is because I have seen the picture on a music CD cover of Paul Hindemith during my music studies. Hence, it is my 70% belief that this picture may be copyrighted. (70% because there is a 30% chance the photo on the CD cover may have been taken from the same source, that is of open source. I dought it! --CylePat 23:30, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Early performing career?

The entry here states that he "led" the Frankfurt Opera Orchestra in 1915-23...I believe this means that he was the concertmaster (American usage) or leader (British usage), not the conductor, as I don't think he did much conducting until his middle years. Any confirmation? Wspencer11 13:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I turned to this article because I once heard Hindemith conducting the Berlin Philharmonic in a programme of Bach suites ( played by a nearly full orchestra -Furtwangler had not been dead a year) and his own music, which included the Cello Concerto, with Mainardi as soloist and the Konzertmusik for Brass and Strings, at a time when (in the mid-fifties) he was seen as a major reasoned exponent of tonality and therefore the opposite of a serialist, or twelve-note composer. I thought I would find some account of his thinking. I didn't get anything like that. This is a composer who wrote convincingly and succesfully in a very conservative mode for the majority of his composing career, during which the main fault hhe was accused of was essentially that he found composition too easy and produced polished and superbly competent music which failed to "challenge" the mid twentieth century listener. From one point of view sort of twentieth century Bach-figure. He was certainly a major European figure in his time. This article almost ignores that. Couldn't someone have another look at it?Delahays (talk) 23:25, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Will see if a biography or contemporary reports provide any enlightenment (a month after the question ...!) Will note that this describes him with certainty as the concertmaster, though. Schissel | Sound the Note! 03:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Any info on if he was concertmaster for violin or viola? -Hamster2.0 (talk) 20:21, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

- He was concertmaster of orchestra - it means he was a principal musician in the first violin section and led the orchestra.

Departure for USA

Hadn't he left Germany already by about 1938 to work in Turkey, and came to the States from there? I had always understood that he didn't return to Germany after going to Turkey until well after the war. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 16:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he went to Ankara first in April 1935, returning to Germany, then going back to Turkey in 1936 and 1937. Evidently he went back and forth a lot. He first went to the US in March 1937; then he went back to Turkey (?) and returned to the US in 1938 and 1939. In September 1938 he emigrated to Switzerland, and in February 1940 he emigrated to the US. (All from the New Grove.) It's a little confused: I'm inferring he traveled back and forth from Turkey to the U.S. and didn't return to Germany until 1947. Antandrus (talk) 17:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Best composer?

The latest edit says many see him as one of the best composers of his time. I'm not certain this is really true; maybe it could say "most prominent" or something along those lines. --Wspencer11 (talk to me...) 12:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This edit was by User:24.177.126.94, who previously vandalised the web page in a more obvious way. I believe that this was meant to be vandalism as well.

--Atavi 18:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Missing stuff?

Hey. I re-read this article just now and noticed something missing. Before, there was a good sentence that said something about there being a perception of H's music as being theoretically interesting but emotionally uninvolving (or something like that). I thought that that was good, and think that it's true (that there is such a perception, if not a consensus).

I think that "good sentence" may have been replaced (by me) on grounds that it was undocumented and used weasel words, along the lines of "many people say . . .". The replacement (documented) sentence now in the article reads: "In 1940 Hindemith emigrated to the United States. At the same time that he was codifying his musical language, his teaching and compositions began to be affected by his theories, according to critics like Ernest Ansermet (1961, note to p. 42 added on an errata slip)."--Jerome Kohl 20:15, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Hooray for you, but you took out the guts, the interesting part. I get the robot concept, but it's silly. It's, what, 2007? It's time (finally) for reality, not abstraction. Dying like a gentleman, dying by the rules, used to make sense, but doesn't any longer. You should have come up with (if you felt you had to) a documented/non-weasel words way of saying what was there, as it's fundamental to any honest look at H's music. You might have quoted something from the critical reaction to him, for example. There's a gorilla in the room: H's music confuses people, turns them off. Honegger thought he was a genius, but my plumber thinks he was a hack. Concealing the fact of the controversy smacks of its own bias, and robs us of the juice: don't you see that it's more interesting to acknowledge the divide, and its fierceness? We're not here to serve Wikipedia or the encyclopedic God. Now let me hear some more robotics, some good hydraulic abstraction.

I think you need to take a look at the Wikipedia policy guidelines, which set forth very clearly the ground rules for this project. It is hardly a "robot concept" to insist on accuracy and accountability in place of wild allegations. As to "quoting something from the critical reaction to him", that is exactly what I did do. Your statement "H's music confuses people, turns them off" is a perfect example of weasel words. Who exactly are "these people"? There is no question of "concealing" anything. You are perfectly welcome to cite "the controversy", with its "juice" and "fierceness", which I am apparently ignorant of. But, then, you see, I am not old enough personally to remember those combative old days of the 1920s. By my time (my student days, I mean, in the late 1960s), Hindemith was regarded as an established figure and, if anything, rather stodgy and ordinary. Do please fill us in, but remember to cite your sources.--Jerome Kohl 07:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Not bad, but what can I say? You're still talking morals, ideas, going so far as to use words like policy, guidelines, rules - you don't hear the hydraulics? OK, so you may be too far gone, but I'll go through the motions of suggesting that we not follow laws simply to follow them, even when they sometimes, as in this case, take us out the window. If you're going to talk about H, just Talk about him. Established figure? Take a look at the concert hall programs; he's no such thing - never has been and never will be. And the people about whose identity you claim to be in the dark with regard to are the ones standing next to you in the Wal Mart line, the McDs drive-thru, the nude beach - they're everywhere. I like pretending, too, but there are (or should be) limits. Happy computing.

Quite frankly, one of the most idiotic comments I've seen on a talk page. Oh, well - as previously stated, Wiki doesn't operate on your personal opinion and taste, but by referencing Reliable Sources. HammerFilmFan (talk) 10:53, 4 September 2011 (UTC) Hammerfilmfan

À rebours

Hindemith was yet another person who thought that he could create art by using an abstract conceptual formula or theory. It never works. Are there any citations that discuss this? The "art" that results from such attempts is always bad. Academics, however, will try to convince us that the "art" is good, maybe even of the highest possible value, but we are just too unsophisticated to appreciate it. Lestrade (talk) 19:29, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Lestrade

~ Thank you for your personal opinion, but that's all it is, quite frankly. Many, many people appreciate Hindemith's genius, and he is becoming quite popular with the younger "classical" crowd. If you don't find "art" in his chamber pieces, for instance, I'm wondering where you do find it? Anyway, a quick glance at the New Grove's article on Hindemith should dispel any doubts about his importance and contribution to serious music. 98.67.187.164 (talk) 23:21, 5 October 2010 (UTC)HammerFilmFan

Religion

I noticed that Paul Hindemith escaped from Nazi Germany. Was he Jewish?

Anonymous173.74.57.205 (talk) 02:06, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

He fell out of favour with the Nazis because his wife was of Jewish descent, and because he wrote music they deemed decadent. Toccata quarta (talk) 04:13, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is, in my opinion, a weak B; it has a number of faults. You can read my detailed review on the comments page. If you have questions or comments, feel free to leave them here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 13:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Paul Hindemith/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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==Composers Project Assessment of Paul Hindemith: 2008-11-21== This is an assessment of article Paul Hindemith by a member of the Composers project, according to its assessment criteria. This review was done by Magicpiano. If an article is well-cited, the reviewer is assuming that the article reflects reasonably current scholarship, and deficiencies in the historical record that are documented in a particular area will be appropriately scored. If insufficient inline citations are present, the reviewer will assume that deficiencies in that area may be cured, and that area may be scored down. Adherence to overall Wikipedia standards (WP:MOS, WP:WIAGA, WP:WIAFA) are the reviewer's opinion, and are not a substitute for the Wikipedia's processes for awarding Good Article or Featured Article status. ===Origins/family background/studies=== Does the article reflect what is known about the composer's background and childhood? If s/he received musical training as a child, who from, is the experience and nature of the early teachers' influences described? No discussion of parents or household. Minimal description of musical instruction. ===Early career=== Does the article indicate when s/he started composing, discuss early style, success/failure? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Lacking in personal details. No indication of when he started composing, what is early works were, or their stylistic relations. ===Mature career=== Does the article discuss his/her adult life and composition history? Are other pedagogic and personal influences from this time on his/her music discussed? Musical coverage good, personal details bad. It is mentioned that he conducted; who? ===List(s) of works=== Are lists of the composer's works in WP, linked from this article? If there are special catalogs (e.g. Köchel for Mozart, Hoboken for Haydn), are they used? If the composer has written more than 20-30 works, any exhaustive listing should be placed in a separate article. Good. List is long enought that it ought to be in a separate article, with most notable works listed here. ===Critical appreciation=== Does the article discuss his/her style, reception by critics and the public (both during his/her life, and over time)? Musical style is covered, reception by critics and audiences is not. Who he influenced is limited to a list of his students (could be elaborated). ===Illustrations and sound clips=== Does the article contain images of its subject, birthplace, gravesite or other memorials, important residences, manuscript pages, museums, etc? Does it contain samples of the composer's work (as composer and/or performer, if appropriate)? (Note that since many 20th-century works are copyrighted, it may not be possible to acquire more than brief fair use samples of those works, but efforts should be made to do so.) If an article is of high enough quality, do its images and media comply with image use policy and non-free content policy? (Adherence to these is needed for Good Article or Featured Article consideration, and is apparently a common reason for nominations being quick-failed.) One image, more needed. Score sections and audio clips representative of his system would be good. ===References, sources and bibliography=== Does the article contain a suitable number of references? Does it contain sufficient inline citations? (For an article to pass Good Article nomination, every paragraph possibly excepting those in the lead, and every direct quotation, should have at least one footnote.) If appropriate, does it include Further Reading or Bibliography beyond the cited references? Article has references listed, but only one inline note. References need to be connected to article text. ===Structure and compliance with WP:MOS=== Does the article comply with Wikipedia style and layout guidelines, especially WP:MOS, WP:LEAD, WP:LAYOUT, and possibly WP:SIZE? (Article length is not generally significant, although Featured Articles Candidates may be questioned for excessive length.) Lead is short. A few footer sections are out of order. ===Things that may be necessary to pass a Good Article review=== Article requires more inline citations (WP:CITE) Article lead needs work (WP:LEAD) Article footer material needs organization (WP:LAYOUT) Article needs (more) images and/or other media (MOS:IMAGE) ===Summary=== This is a basic professional biography of the man. It is lacking in any significant personal details; we learn at one point that he is married; no mention of when, or if there were children. There is only very basic mention of his childhood environment. His musical style is well-described, as are the factors that influenced him. There is little mention of critical and popular reaction to his works. While his students are listed, there is no elaboration of what kind if influence he had on them; do they (or anyone else) use his system? While the list of compositions appears to be complete, it is long enough to be in its own article. As his music is still largely under copyright, his publishers should be more prominently mentioned (currently only mentioned in an external link). An article this length should have more images. This article would clearly benefit from having some sort of samples (either audio, score fragment, or both) of music composed using his system, possibly with comparable samples of more conventionally-written music. The article lead is short for an article of this length; see WP:LEAD. Some of the footer material is out of place, see WP:LAYOUT. The article contains no inline citations, which would (in addition to other issues) be a barrier to GA/FA consideration. I give this article a weak B rating; there is much room for improvement. Magic♪piano 13:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 13:31, 11 December 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 02:27, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Ansermet

The author should really say a lot more about how Hindemith's "compositions began to be affected by his theories," especially because the citation at that point is merely to some note to some "p. 42 added on an errata slip." I think that a lot of people do hold this view of late Hindemith, so I'm sure there's something to it. A few illustrative examples from his late work and from his theoretical work would be of much interest.98.190.248.43 (talk) 15:47, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed Ansermet should have said more about his opinion. Unfortunately, he died in 1969, so it is now too late to ask for more details.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:08, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

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