Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bliss Blood

Bliss Blood, Daria Klotz, Lisa Hammer, Queen Itchie, Miller Duvall, Secretary Jenny, Lisa Crystal Carver, Vaginal Creme Davis, Cindy Dall all listed on WP:VFD July 12 to July 18 2004, consensus was to keep all. Archived discussion:

All pages are non-notable / vanity. There are some borderline cases that are linked from the pages listed above. I'm not certain whether they should be deleted, but I feel that all the pages here should be. Acegikmo1 15:02, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• These may have to go case by case. "The Moonlighters" are now, I think, recorded by a label, and the other bands who contributed to the group are notable. That group may qualify as local interest. However, breaking out solo articles is not warranted here. My rule is: if the band article is too big, break 'em out. If they're known as solo artists or for other stuff, break 'em out. This is more a collection of musicians who have 3 or 4 bands at a time. Weak delete & suggest individual review. Geogre 16:58, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• There isn't an artist listed in this group, with the exception of Secretary Jenny, who hasn't been either published by a major literary publication, interviewed by a major magazine for their contributions to the arts or have at least one large budget film/album released. Examples:
  • Lisa Crystal Carver has three books published, has been called one of the 100 most important people by Utne Magazine, and wrote Rollerderby, arguably one the most successful zines of all time. A documentary about her is currently in production.
  • Vaginal Creme Davis is one of most important drag queens in America, she's been featured in Page 6 of the New York Post. She's also recorded her own albums for major labels, and was the subject of Jose Muñoz' book "Disidentications: Queers of Color and the Performance of Politics"
  • Bliss Blood has been in two major label bands that she created -- The Pain Teens and The Moonlighters -- and is famous nationally and internationally for her contributions to underground psychedelic music.
  • Cindy Dall has two solo albums recorded by major labels: Drag City and the Domino Record Company
  • Lisa Hammer is an important figure in New York City underground film making. Here's some info: http://www.lisahammer.com/filmmaker/filmmaker.html
  • Daria Klotz was featured in a color photo of the New York Times for being one of the most important ukelele players in the city, while they were covering the National Ukelele festival.
• No vote. Prior comments were posted by anon User:209.227.22.34. Please log in then come back and sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~) so they can be counted. Rossami 20:16, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• I don't think factual comments need to be signed to be a part of the discussion there is no vote as such recorded there. However, I need more than this. Being mentioned on Page Six and in a book by an academic are just not notable enough. Heck, I feel about that notable myself, I've had my picture in various newspapers, written articles for various publications, and wouldn't mark myself as notable for a serious encyclopedia (though the vanity almanac people send me notices ((Who's Who Among... etc.)) Continuing, "an important figure in NYC underground film scene", generally I don't think "scenesters" are gonna make the notability cut for me. Sounds like she might rate a note in a NYC section of an Underground film article, but not an article. I'm known, internationally too, by people who know me and live overseas, but being known internationally isn't the same as being famous internationally. It's not even being notable internationally. Aim for the notable standard. If you want to advocate for these people, make the case a bit more specifically and realistically. In addition, a "major label" is more likely one of the imprints of the Big Five record labels. A "minor label" is something like American Recordings. Now, you might describe American Recordings as a "Major Independant Label", but it would be silly to call it a "Major Label" You also wouldn't describe it as a "Minor Independent Label". You might describe Drag City that way. Anyhoo. I vote Delete, the overreaching present here screams "non-notable" to me.--Samuel J. Howard 05:34, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • I also wanted to cast aspersions on the idea of being the most important Uke player in NYC. Even given the size of NYC, this is not particularly notable by itself. We're not talking Tiny Tim here.--Samuel J. Howard 05:36, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)
    • OK, let's keep Lisa Crystal Carver, but delete the rest. Just 'cause they were in her show isn't enough (and their names in that article should be diwikified). In, for example, the article on Buffalo Bill, we mention the Wild West Show, but only Sitting Bull and Annie Oakley get particular mention, because they were otherwise notable, as a warrior and for the musical respectively. We don't have articles on "third Indian" and "tall cowboy".--Samuel J. Howard 18:04, Jul 13, 2004 (UTC)
• I'm not particularly impressed by the arguments in favor of keeping these, although I must admit laughing out loud over the name, "Vaginal Creme Davis." The best name ever bestowed on a drag queen, IMHO. After much thought, I vote delete per reasons stated by Samuel J. Howard. - Lucky 6.9 07:28, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
  • Actually, I think the "best drag name" honor has to go to Peaches Christ. Remember, Peaches loves you! Oh, and: keep. They do seem to be notable, with potential for expansion beyond stub. — Gwalla | Talk 07:48, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Are you people on crack? Keep all of these. Particularly big in the years just before the Internet hit big (the alternative and independent music and fanzine culture leading up to 1995 - the stuff Nirvana was the merest tip of), a period I find curiously uncovered in Google. Popular culture didn't start in 1995, you know - David Gerard 12:26, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

• Dear Editors, please vote undelete for the above artists! Here's why:

While many of us have friends overseas (as mentioned above), we haven't been described by Art Forum as "the future of art" like Vaginal Creme Davis has, nor as one of the most "important 100 celebrities of the '90s" by Vanity Fair. VCD is not unique among the artists above for this degree of fame -- they are all serious, accomplished artists, not mere "scenesters." If they weren't as famous, the would still be worthy of inclusion due to their contributions to the arts.

The above artists are extremely important to me, and they are important to a lot of people in the world of art and culture. I've never met most of them or even seen them perform, but I've been inspired by their literature and art.

I have a strong suspicion that most of the "delete" voters could care less what Art Forum has to say. Which is fine -- but many millions of people do. To blot out a significant subculture because it doesn't fit into your idea of what's important or cool borders, fairly heavily, on a Babbitt-like contempt of the different.

I'd like to suggest, in polite terms, that perhaps all art doesn't appeal to everyone the same -- and that if I had my druthers, I'd probably eliminate many of the listings -- say for instance, a separate listing on the Political units of Star Trek. That to, me, is insignificant. But the wikipedia is a universal encyclopedia, not my top 10 list of pop culture.

I'm not going to vote, because I'm not an editor, and I can't make the time commitment to be one. But I love reading Wikipedia and making occasional entries. And I think you editors are doing a great job.

But I urge you to vote for non-delete, so that the important artists of different subcultures --perhaps different than the ones you're a part of -- can continue to be cataloged on the wikipedia.

(And with more than 40 internationally touring artists including Will Oldham, Stereolab and Smog, Drag City is hardly operating out of someone's garage. Geez.)

• Comment: Nobody and everybody is an editor here. Anyone can add an article, anyone can change an article, and anyone can motion to delete or keep an article assuming that they've signed up as a user. BUT...an unsigned vote doesn't count, which is a shame since you stated your case so eloquently. There are many sub-culture and counterculture references here, but they're on widely accepted topics. - Lucky 6.9 05:22, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• I'm going to have to say keep. Comments like "with the exception of Lisa Crystal Carver" and "The Moonlighters are now, I think, recorded by a label", as well as references in noise music and Suckdog, which are not up for deletion, it seems that all of these people are heavily involved in a movement, underground as it may be, that is notable. Also, they probably shouldn't have been listed as a mass delete. The Steve 06:25, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)
• In addition to the other media coverage cited, Vaginal Davis has recently been the subject of a profile in the New York Times (May 23, 2004 -- [1]) and another in the LA Times. Incidentally, Vaginal Davis prefers not to use "Creme" as a middle name, though I know changing the title of Wikipedia entries is not so simple. I am voting to keep all of these entries. --Larrybob 23:00, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Vote to keep all. I'm not intimately familiar with each and every name, but I am familiar with the majority of them. Dame Darcy and Lisa Crystal Carver are incontrovertibly important, Queen Itchie has been involved with several good publications, and generally all of these people work with other interesting people. I'd recommend Carver's "Rollerdery" zine compilation and Darcy's recent "Meatcake" hardcover comics collection to anyone interested in pursuing this further. Billyk 13:28, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
• Comment: "Larrybob" is a legit user, but our friend "Billyk" is a sockpuppet. Check the histories. - Lucky 6.9 00:06, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)