Talk:Caerleon

Hanbury additions

I have added an area about the Hanbury Arms Alehouse but want to get this picture : View_of_the_Hanbury_Arms_alehouse_from_the_bridge_in_Caerleon.JPG underneath the text. I tried but it appeared to big, can you help? Also I have asked the webmaster of Caerleon.net to add the wiki article on Caerleon to be added to his "Links" area on [1]

County

Owain, why are you deleting things without giving a reason? I fail to understand your overwhelming desire to add a reference to Monmouthshire. As Caerleon has more recently been included in Gwent it is more logical to note this than an even older county. My solution: skip the information about past counties. There are more useful things that could be said in an encyclopaedia entry.

What's the point in a reference to a defunct administrative area? Traditional counties continue to exist as geographical references, which are quite handy when you're explaining where a place is. See Traditional counties of Wales Owain 13:05, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Gwent is also a traditional county, and is just as much a geographical reference as Monmouthsire. It also has the advantage of not being confused with a current area with the same name. By the way, referencing something you yourself wrote hardly backs up your argument. For a better reference try googling for Caerleon + Gwent and Caerleon + Monmouthshire - you get slightly more hits for the former, which I think is a good indication of where people think it is. Why not leave both out? It's not as if it is unclear where its position is. Rls 00:50, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid Gwent is NOT a traditional county. That phrase has a specific meaning - i.e. the county names and boundaries that exist separately of local government administrative counties. I didn't write the page on traditional counties myself, I've just contributed to it! How is Gwent a geographical reference? The defunct local government area was totally different to the original Early British Kingdom of the same name. As for the Google search, you must know that they are the least scientific way to prove anything. Where people think they are is largely influenced by the Royal Mail's bizarre Postal counties of the United Kingdom, which they've thankfully got rid of. By all means leave it out, but realise the difference between traditional counties and former administrative areas. Owain 11:51, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Introduction

Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements states that in an article introduction "The county and home nation must be mentioned". Walgamanus 15:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The county of Caerleon is Newport and it is governed by Newport City Council. If you want to read about the history of the Monmouthshire, Gwent, etc. it should be on the Newport article. None of the other articles for the districts of Newport mention Monmoutshire or Gwent. Marky-Son 15:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Newport is a city and a principal area, not a county. Caerleon is in the preserved county of Gwent. It used to be in the historic county of Monmouthshire (and some would argue still is). This information is given in the article's infobox. Walgamanus 18:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Newport used to be a county borough, are you implying a city has a lesser status than a county borough? Feel free to add the county for all the other districts of Newport, plus Cardiff, Bristol, Birmingham etc, otherwise I don't see why this is neccessary. If it used to be in Gwent, why does the article say it IS in Gwent? I've looked all other towns that were in Gwent and none of them mention Gwent in the opening paragraph. Marky-Son 19:46, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Newport's present status is a principal area with a city council. I would appreciate more information on its former county borough status. As members of the WikiProject UK geography work through places in the Newport principal area, as well as places elsewhere in the UK, the introductions should all be updated to include the counties and home nations as laid out in the How to write about settlements guidelines. Caerleon IS in the preserved county of Gwent, as I stated above (it is, of course, also in the principal area of Newport); and, at the risk of repeating myself, this information is given in the article's infobox. I'm just trying to follow general UK geography guidelines agreed by consensus. Walgamanus 08:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

The borough of Newport was elevated to the status of a county borough under the Local Governmnet Act 1888 in November 1891. That corporation was dissolved by the Local Government Act 1972 in April 1974, but the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994 established a new county borough of Newport in April 1996, which was additionally awarded the status of a city in March 2002. The distinction between principal areas labelled "county" and "county borough" in the latter Act is entirely arbitrary - it is just a label within the narrow meaning of the LG(W)A 1994. Owain (talk) 14:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The consensus was (and still is to my knowledge) that the administrative/ceremonial information should be restricted to the infobox and not cluttering up the opening sentence. The fact is that a "preserved county of Gwent" exists for certain functions - i.e. the appointment of a Lord-Lieutenant and to be taken into account by the Boundary Commission when drawing up constituencies every 8 to 12 years. It is NOT and never has been a general geographic description for an area. It most certainly is NOT correct to write "in the Welsh county of Gwent". Furthermore the historic county of Monmouthshire continues to exist as a geographic county independently of the administrative changes of 1974 and 1996. So "(formerly Monmouthshire)" is also incorrect. As I've already pointed out, having to explain this in the intro to EVERY article will become very tedious. Leave it out and let people see it in the infobox and click on the relevant articles if they want to know more. Owain (talk) 14:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd checked out the county borough, but thanks for the information. I am very aware that strictly speaking both forms of county still exist. As I stated, I am simply trying to follow Wikipedia agreed conventions.

I included the county in the intro because personally I find it useful, but mostly because Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements clearly states that you should do so: "The county and home nation must be mentioned". I have found no information concerning restriction to infoboxes, which would contradict the project guidelines. All the information I can find concerning referencing counties indicates that in non-historical subject articles the modern administrative or ceremonial counties should be used. Historic counties should be mentioned, but treated as not being currently in existence. Hence my description.

See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (places): "We should use the current, administrative, county....We should mention historic (traditional) counties in articles about places and in references to places in a historic context, but only as an afternote. If a place is a unitary authority and not administered by a county council, it is acceptable to use ceremonial counties as geographic references, as this is often more in line with common usage. As has been pointed out, it is not useful to state that "Luton is a town in the county of Luton"...We should not take the minority position that they still exist with the former boundaries."

However, I have been browbeaten enough and have lost interest in this article, as I'm sure was the intention. I hope that adding "in south-east Wales" to the introduction is not too contraversial. I believe that naming the country in an article's introduction is useful to an international audience. Walgamanus 21:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Luton is a town and local authority/borough of the same name, Caerleon certainly isn't because it's in Newport. "Bushmead is a suburb/district in the town and borough of Luton." would be perfectly acceptable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marky-Son (talk • contribs) 14:24, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

The opening paragraph should be updated.

I contend that the name of this place "CAER-LEON", means nothing more or less than "The Lion Fortress!" If you can find a "reliable" source that can prove that "LEON" in this particular place is referrenced to the word "LEGIO" or Legion, then please cite it? Common sense sometimes is the best policy and I will bet you that you can find more etymological sources supporting "LION" than "LEGIO?" Perhaps the site only considers these sources? http://search.aol.com/aol/search?&query=legio+or+leon%2C+meaning&invocationType=tb50-ie-aolrt-tbsbox-en-us Thanks for listening! Perhaps LYON, France is another example as well could be the Kingdom of LEON in Spain? But do any of you find it strange that, as far as I know, no Roman Legion was called "LEO", but it seems a few of them used "LEO" the LION in its "STANDARD"96.19.147.40 (talk) 22:47, 11 January 2013 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes

I've added a reliable source for the origin of the name. Your theory is novel but irrelevant; we publish what reliable sources say, not fringe opinions or contentions. Ghmyrtle (talk) 23:09, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

So, just what is your source? Is it the Enclylopedia Britannica? Wow! Oh, by the way, thanks for the comment "NOVEL!" LOL, I would that more of you would show as much respect for mere "common sense!" By the way did you know that no Roman Legion wa ever was called "LION? / Lyon / Leon"; but "Standards" were another thing, and since this regardred "Legio II Agustus", was also known to have fought in Spain before being transferred to Wales, we can only surmise that they might well have fought in "LEON" in Spain and perhaps they captured one of their "Standards?". Perhaps they merely added this victory to their "STANDARD" or the Flag that Flew at the Fort itself? After all most all of the information concerning most of these Legio's is made up of innuendo, perhaps, could have's, maybes, speculations, etc.! I would suggest that my "maybe" is just as good as theirs! Regards!96.19.147.40 (talk) 23:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)Ronald L.Hughes

OH! MY MY, I actually went and looked at your "reliable source", and his work entitled "Cair Legeion guar Uisc"!! Well, since we have been told the "River valley" that this port/fort was designed to guard, was called the (from you site; "Caerleon (pron.: /kərˈliːən/; Welsh: Caerllion) is a suburban village and community, situated on the River Usk [1]" You might well note that this Roman Fort was situated overlooking the river spelled as the "USK"! Can you or one of your friends who are familar with etymology, tell me the difference between "Usk" and "Uiac or even Isca"? I deign to suggest that the title of Jones missive should be translated as "Cair/Caere/Fort/Fortress" of the "Legeion/Legio/Legion" which was "quar/quarted/stationed/guarding" the area of the "Uisc / Usk / Isca" river port! Please think of "Isca Augusta"!

And just what tribe did these Romans come here first to fight? From Wiki;

"According to Tacitus's biography of Agricola, the Silures usually had a dark complexion and curly hair. Due to their appearance, Tacitus hinted that they may have crossed over from Spain at an earlier date." "... the swarthy faces of the Silures, the curly quality, in general, of their hair, and the position of Spain opposite their shores, attest to the passage of Iberians in old days and the occupation by them of these districts; ..." (Tacitus Annales Xi.ii, translated by M. Hutton) Genetic studies carried out by the University College London, Oxford University and the University of California have suggested that some Welsh and Irish people share genetic similarity with the Basque people who originated in northern Iberia."

Thus it is possible that some of the genetic material left by the Roman Legion, that may well have fought against the King of Leon (Leo/Lion) in Spain might well have left their genetic mark upon the people of this area of Wales?

And interestingly, also from Wiki is this map of Spain (in the Middle Ages) that shows that the Kingdom of Leon was located precisely in the area of Spain/Portugal that is considered as Basque!~! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kingdom_of_Leon_1037.svg

Wow, could the Basque soldiers of the Middle Ages have actually occupied Wales during the Roman occupation? LOL

Can't wait to see your kind reply!96.19.147.40 (talk) 00:24, 12 January 2013 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes

It seems that the name of León also derives from the Latin legio. You are surely aware that the Roman occupation of Wales took place about 1000 years before the Middle Ages? I'm not quite sure what you're trying to show here, or why, but the point is that what leading academics like Professor Owen write is relevant to constructing an encyclopedia, and your opinions and thoughts are not. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:34, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

So, hang on Mr Hughes, what you seem to be now suggesting is this: Romans fought the "King of Leon" in the region called Leon in Northern Spain. That some of those same soldiers inter-bred with Spanish people there and then came to Wales. That those soldiers then "left genetic material" in Caerleon (presumably again by inter-breeding). This made Welsh people in general look a bit like Spanish people (supported by Tacitus' claim that the shores of Spain are "opposite" those of Wales). And that's why the Leon in Caerleon refers to Leon in Spain (or maybe a lion, because some Roman legions had lions on their standards.) Yes? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:09, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Hillfort

Not sure why Lodge Hill Iron Age hillfort is included under "Roman fortress". The two were quite separate. For a correct chronology, maybe there should be a separate sub-section on pre-history? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:59, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

The Caerleon Industrial School

Here's a paper by D. B. Hughes, M.A. on "The Caerleon Industrial School". Hughes traces the history of the education of pauper children in Monmouthshire between 1834 and 1929. In this part, Chapter III, he deals with the provision made by the Newport Union for a separate school in Caerleon, away from the Stow Hill workhouse: [2]. There's a bit more about it here with a location map. There's nothing about this in the article currently. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2016 (UTC)