Talk:Great Leap Forward

Privatalisation of farm lands?? Good for chinese or bad?

The current article states that a ban on the private farm lands had caused massive harm to chinese society and culture..based on what truth?

According to a Guardian paper quoted study,

"Privatisation in eastern Europe often led to massive thefts of public property by oligarchs and became deeply unpopular, with strong majorities of people in all post-Communist countries wanting its revision. Privatisation is also disliked in India, Latin America and China itself, while studies of privatisation in many parts of the world show it can have a deleterious effect on development. Land privatisation in China would rapidly create land concentration and landless peasants."

Source https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-winner-liu-xiaobo-chinese-dissident

It is a country with a vast population and filthy rich people could have easily bought out large private land banks and left very few for the poor peasants. Hence is it right to make such a bold pro capitalist statement that a ban on private land is indeed harmful to chinese civillians? Or that it omits the disadvantages of privatisation of lands.202.52.36.52 (talk) 06:17, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

yeah, you wrote this in an article about the greatest famine in human history, caused by communism.

let me know when capitalism causes the greatest famine in human history.

by the way you are conflating capitalism with oligarchism, when you should be talking about descentralization against centralization which is really the culprit of this issue. 88.131.68.199 (talk) 11:06, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

He is a commie defender after all, can't expect too much intelligence. 2601:18D:8C7F:C100:DC0E:E0BA:6500:E58 (talk) 05:45, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India

here you go, capitalism directly killing millions of people in a famine. 2604:3D09:217F:EA70:2050:D0CB:ABF7:40F7 (talk) 03:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Typo in Other Impacts/Education

The first sentence is lacking the "from" year. Can anyone please add sources and fix this? Thanks. 14.248.29.8 (talk) 06:49, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Little late to the party, but thanks for noticing that! I've removed the "from" for now, until the source is verified and the date found. GoldRomean (talk) 01:27, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Estimates on the casualties of the Great Leap forward

This article is pretty biased against the PROC in many areas, and completely omits certain details of the movement and ensuing famine, as well as citing non-credible sources like Judith Banister and Frank Dikotter mainly in regards to the death toll, ecenomic situation of china consequences on agriculture etc. there are more credible sources that actually do this topic justice-

Revisiting Alleged 30 Million Famine Deaths during China’s Great Leap by Utsa Patnaik: https://mronline.org/2011/06/26/revisiting-alleged-30-million-famine-deaths-during-chinas-great-leap/

Population Change During China's "Three Years of Hardship" (1959-1961) by Sun Jingxian: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iLVagufemBYVG4d043mL6XH0auu8V5HE/view

<@722556957847715902> The Economic Situation in Communist China 1961 by CIA https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0001098172.pdf

Frank Dikötters Research by Yang Songlin [Telling the Truth: China’s Great Leap Forward, Household Registration and the Famine Death Tally]

Most part of his book is about creating a sensational effect by telling tragic stories. His method of calculating death figures is the most simplistic among all the research, so simplistic that its validity cannot be established. Hence, this book should have been awarded a prize for “fiction”.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/101MMRWGDSB4aL1Lyb41HAVmCZNrREHgg/view?usp=drivesdk

"On Famines and Measuring 'Famine Deaths'" by Utsa Patnaik: https://archive.org/details/pdfy-aW9fF2uI0YXUonyt/mode/2up

Farmers, Mao, and Discontent in China: From the Great Leap Forward to the Present by Dongping Han: https://monthlyreview.org/2009/12/01/farmers-mao-and-discontent-in-china/ There are widespread misconceptions about numerous aspects of the Chinese revolution. These include a misreading of the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the “reforms” of the post-Mao era, and the reaction of the overwhelming mass of the peasantry to these movements. Although the revolutionary programs/movements resulted in significant hardships — on the rural population (the Great Leap Forward, 1958-61) or the intellectuals (the Cultural Revolution, 1966-76) — they both produced concrete achievements in the countryside that led to impressive gains in agricultural production and in people’s lives. In contrast, the post-Mao era “reforms” have resulted so far in a huge growth of inequality in China, with the rural population suffering greatly by the dismantling of public support for health and education. In addition, local and regional officials have sold farmland for development purposes, usually lining their own pockets, with inadequate compensation for the farmers. This has resulted in the current massive unrest in rural areas, involving literally hundreds of thousands of incidents with protesting farmers.

Did Mao Really Kill Millions in the Great Leap Forward? by Joseph Ball http://tomweston.net/ChinFam.pdf Sun Jingxian and the Myth of Mao’s Genocide. The Last Word? by Joseph Ball https://josephballcommunist.wordpress.com/2019/07/13/the-mao-killed-millions-myth-the-last-word/

The article presents evidence for a figure of 3.66 million deaths due to famine. It is 12% of the 30 million figure favoured by Judith Banister and other American demographers in the 1980s. It is 8% of the 45 million figure favoured by Frank Dikotter. It is equivalent to about 0.5% of the country’s population dying over a three year period.

Did Mao really kill millions in the great leap forward? by MR Online https://mronline.org/2006/09/21/did-mao-really-kill-millions-in-the-great-leap-forward/

Was Mao Really a Monster?: The Academic Response to Chang and Halliday's "Mao: The Unknown Story" by Gregor Benton, Chun Lin https://b-ok.cc/book/867973/5778c0 Sun Jingxian and the Myth of Mao’s Genocide. The Last Word? By Joseph Ball https://josephballcommunist.wordpress.com/2019/07/13/the-mao-killed-millions-myth-the-last-word/ Vivaaan (talk) 15:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

We need scholarly sources from subject experts that haven't been self-published. We then assess what weight to give those among the whole body of reliable sources, per our content policy concerning neutral point of view. Ball is self-published, and Sun is a mathematician by trade. There is no evidence that Monthly Review undergoes academic peer review. Remsense诉 15:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact, the new editor who opened up this discussion is likely an old editor from earlier this year [1] who has a similar username and uses (and, similarly mis-interpreted) the same CIA document [2] above. So just a quick reminder of WP:SOCK. On the other hand, the editor cited several unreliable sources according to Wikipedia standard WP:RS, to argue against several academic sources, which the editor outright call "non-credible". In my opinion this is not bringing up any serious evidence-based discussion, but simply some outlier statistics WP:FRINGE with undue weight WP:UNDUE. SCreditC (talk) 18:59, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Points taken, but aspersions needn't be cast at this point. Remsense诉 20:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC)