Talk:Half-elven

Who counts as half-elven?

How could Dior be half-elven, since Luthien had chosen to be mortal and was therefore no longer an Elf? Is there a Tolkien source for this? Stan 01:13, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Lúthien had chosen to be counted among Men after death — she had not become a human, she had only chosen the fate of humans. And keep in mind Lúthien was herself half Maia, so Dior was a quarter Maia, a quarter Elven, and half Man. — Jor 11:02, Jan 6, 2004 (UTC)

1.) Concerning Dior's status, the judgement of the Valar concerning the half-even had not been handed down at the time of his birth, so it's difficult to judge clearly. He was born to a mortal father and an elven mother, but this was after they had been re-embodied as mortals. Given that his father, Beren, was allowed to return to life, and his mother, Luthien, allowed to die as a mortal, it seems that his case is surrounded by extenuating circumstances and pointless to attempt to decipher. In any case, his early and violent death renders the debate rather moot.

All that can be safely said is that his mortal blood was important enough that his daughter through a full-blooded Sindarin elf, Elwing, was given the choice of a mortal death by the Valar (which she declined).

2.) I take issue with "Eärendil's fate was special however: he was not allowed to stay in Valinor, but had to sail the heavens" - Eärendil's heavenly excursions were out of his love for sailing, and inability to return to Middle-Earth. Nothing was required of him in this regard.

3.) "The heirs of Elrond, including Arwen Undómiel, also had the free choice of kindred, therefore Arwen could choose to be counted amongst the Edain even though her father had chosen to be counted as Elven." - this statement is plausible, but the books strongly imply that her decision was more like Luthien's (to whom she is frequently compared), not the Half-elven. Unlike the line of Elros, who died in the manner of men, Arwen did not exactly suffer a mortal fate - she left Minas Tirith and wandered the woods as a widow until she faded from memory. Her mortal fate is left ambiguous. -Peter Farago (talk)

My copy of "Return of the King" (Ballantine Books paperback, printed 1983) says just before section II of Appendix A: "She went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came ... then at last ... she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after ... with the passing of Evenstar no more is said in this book of the days of old." This definitely sounds like she lay down and died. DanielCristofani 06:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Arwen's choice

I added a "cite needed" tag, on the statement "The children of Elrond were also given free choice of kindred..." Is there evidence of this in any of the texts? My impression was, as suggested above, that Arwen's choice was of the same nature as Luthien's—that by marrying a mortal she was forced to choose his fate. I'm not a Tolkien scholar, though, so perhaps there is evidence for the statement in some of his writings. If so, a citation will clear this up.--Srleffler 06:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a statement. I think it is in The Silmarillion in the 'Of the Rings of the Power and the Third Age' bit, or maybe in Appendix A of LotR (the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen'), where Aragorn and Elrond are talking Aragorn says "But lo! Master Elrond, the time of choosing is drawing near", oe something. I'll try and remember to look this up. Carcharoth 11:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, don't know how to put it into the main article, but the reference you are looking for is LoTR, Appendix A,1,(i) at the end of the second section it says "But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appoinyed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained to become mortal..."195.128.251.33 00:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

This may imply that either Elrond lived as an elf while postponing his choice, leaving his options open, thus his children were half-elves (in couplings between races of light, the children seem to belong to the more material race) of the line of Eärendil and Elwing, thus getting also a choice, or that, the same way as the descendants of Elros were giveng a lengthened lifespan and the elven trait of choice to die, the descendants of Elrond inherit the choice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.147.50.15 (talk) 16:56, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Naming

This page used to contain Norse half-elves and other fantasy half-elves. I made Half-elf, previusly a redirect, focus on the Norse, with Tolkien's and others mentioned in "In other contexts". But should this page be retitled Half-elf (Middle-earth)? To my knowledge Tolkien never used "Half-elf", only "Half-elven" (never mind she-elf ;-) ). But Half-elven (Middle-earth) would go against Wikipedia naming conventions, which is to use the singular - that's why Elves (Middle-earth) was moved to Elf (Middle-earth). Either way this page would be made into a redirect to Half-elf. Uthanc 02:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree this page should have (middle earth) after the title and this should be a general page about half elves - Mloren

WHY IS THIS THE ONLY ENTRY FOR HALF-ELF?

There are actual half elves in historical myth. I was linked to this TOLKIEN page from this on necromancy. WHY?

"In Hrólf Kraki's saga, the half-elven princess Skuld was very skilled in witchcraft (seiðr), and this to the point that she was almost invincible in battle. When her warriors fell, she made them rise again to continue fighting."

There is nothing about half-elves in D&D, or any other kind of half-elves listed here. This page is incomplete and needs to be updated.

I mentioned it above; Half-elf contains the Norse stuff. Sheesh. Uthanc 21:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Line of the Half-Elven

I think that line of the Half-Elven section should indicate what each person was, maybe by colour. What do other people think?--Apyule 14:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Half-elven are already in italics. If you mean that Men and Elves should be distinguished, possibly they can, by introducing bold text; but I'm not in favour of this, and certainly against using other colours. Súrendil 12:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Please add cites to this article

I added the "unreferenced" template to this article:

"This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed."

Yes, everything in this article "comes from Tolkien ... somewhere", but online sources say a lot of things about Tolkien that aren't actually verifiable from his works. I find that the Wikipedia articles on Tolkien tend to be pretty casual about cites, but IMHO the cites are important. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 14:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Choice

Going by the sources I've found, half-elves as it were had no choice to make; the choice was a gift given to a single family of them.

From what I've seen of Tolkien's works and Christopher Tolkien's aclarations, children born between men and elves were born as mortals with features, and perhaps abilities, inherited from their elven parent. It's the same reasoning as why Lúthien was an elf despite being a half-Maia (she belongs to the younger kind but inherits traits from the older one). Had Elwë not died due to the Silmaril's curse, Dior would have never be able to inherit the throne, as he would have died by then. When Eärendil crossed the sea and Elwing followed him, the two of them, along with their sons Elrond and Elros, were awarded with the possibility to chose their destiny to live as mortal men or immortal elves, defaulting to the second choice while still undecided (i.e. as long as they don't make a decision, they live like elves, but once they make it, they live as they choose). Those awarded with the choice, if deciding to live as mortals, receive a long lifespan and the elven ability to chose the moment of their death, both traits that can be inherited and that seem to get stronger when they follow a righteous life and to gradually wane when they don't (the last few Númenorian kings didn't reach two centuries while Aragorn looked like a man in his prime when he was over a century old, or at least around that age). Half-elves with the choice that chose to be elves may have the capability, as oppossed to those who chose humanity, to pass on the right of choice to their children (either that or Elrond fathered Arwen before he made his choice).

None other half-elf has been shown to have a choice on their destiny (nor have lengthened lifespan), and every version I found of Eärendil's story refers to the choice as a gift bestowed only upon Eärendil and his family, that no other half-elf would receive and with no possibility of backtrack. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.147.50.15 (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

I think you're over-analyzing this. We know nothing regarding the status of Dior and his children. Except for Elwing they all died before the end of the First Age, and Tolkien does not say whether they left the world (as humans do) or returned to Mandos. The notion of "choice" was basically a one-time thing instituted by Manwe at the end of the First Age (Sil. p. 249), basically an attempt to tidy up the mess to date: Earendil, Elwing, Elros, and Elrond all had to decide which kindred to belong to (and it is clear that Elrond made his choice at that time -- nothing indicates that he made a "deferred choice"). According to Appendix A, Elrond's children also had to make a choice by deciding whether to accompany Elrond to Aman. This is not quite the same "free choice" that Elrond had; they could not remain Eldar in the "mortal lands" of Middle-earth independently. (This, I think, was another attempt to make the lines between mortal and immortal more firm: the Valar clearly wanted all the Elves to come to Valinor.) Trying to abstract general rules of inheritance from this goes well beyond anything that Tolkien described. -- Elphion (talk) 20:43, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the earlier unsigned comment: the statement that "Half Elves had the Choice" isn't supported by what Tolkien wrote (I recall it was stated by Iron Crown Enterprises in their role-playing game, but they wrote that before Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle Earth books came out anyway. The Silmarillion stated that Earendil, Elwing, and their sons were given the choice. It makes no comment on other Half Elves. The latest version of the text directly written by JRRT was in The Lost Road (Book Five of HoME), and made it explicit that "Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged." [The words of Manwe on pages 326-327). Christopher Tolkien further observed (pages 334-335) 'It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwe Dior Thingol's Heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother.' This is supported by the growth rate shown by Dior - he married at age 27, claimed the throne of Doriath at age 32 and was slain at age 36. All fine for a mortal Man, but Elves take 100 years to mature (in their twenties they may appear physically seven years old) and do not complete physical puberty until they are fifty years old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.142.167 (talk) 09:47, 21 July 2017 (UTC)