Talk:Stikine River

Untitled

The name Stikine doesn't have anything to do with the Tlingit "great river" which would be Héen Tléin. Instead the name comes from Shtax' Héen which has two supposed meanings. The first, and more commonly accepted, is "river cloudy with the spawn of salmon". The second is "very silty river". The former is probably closer to the truth, the latter more likely a misinterpretation of the metaphor given in the former name. Unfortunately places like the National Parks Service and other disseminators of tourist information have perpetuated myths about the name that developed back in the 19th and early 20th centuries, rather than checking with Tlingit speakers who actually live in the area. This is typical.

Perhaps something should be added about the perennial proposals for bridges that would be built from the mainland south of the mouth of the river across the channel to Wrangell. This would include a discussion of the proposed cutoff from the highway that would travel down the river to the mouth.

Also, something should be said about the massive depredation of salmon stocks by fish trap operators in territorial days. The current escapement data from the DF&G would need to be referenced for recovery figures.

— James Crippen 11:37, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Speaking of the fishery, isn't the Stikine fishery covered by the International Joint Commission treaties, i.e. that a share of its fishery (in fact theoretically the largest part of it) belongs to BC? In practicality I think this winds up being a trade-off vs. Alaskan shares in the Fraser/Puget Sound fishery, but in international salmon law fish belong to the country they spawn in. And only a few miles of the Stikine are in Alaska; and even then (as noted now in the article when the boundary was drawn, the boundary was at what was then the mouth of the river, which has since silted in; ditto with the Canadian right-of-navigation on the river, which dates back to the days of Russian America and was affirmed in the 1903 Hayes-Herbert Treaty; hard to imagine the days of heavy steamboat traffic up the Stikine and Iskut, but "was a time...".Skookum1 06:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It is covered under the treaty I believe, but note that salmon can’t travel upstream of the Grand Canyon, so there’s quite a bit of the river that is salmonless. As far as I know, there is basically no commercial fishery on the Stikine other than at its mouth. The only community along the river is Telegraph, and that village is mostly Tahltan indians who subsistence fish but don’t commercial fish. The Stikine king fishery was opened last year after around 50 years of being closed, this because the ADF&G decided that escapement had finally reached levels that could support a sustainable fishery. It’s not much of a commercial river nowadays, however, because the fish traps ruined it in the post-goldrush era. — Jéioosh 07:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Gauging station location

The annual discharge is on an Environment Canada sitetable; I just wanted to plunk its latlong here so as to get Geohack to show me where it is - 56°42′07″N 132°08′28″W.Skookum1 (talk) 20:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Canadian English use

Re the addition of the Canadian English template, and the reversion of "laborious" to "labourious", 99% of the river's length is in Canada, and 99.99% of its drainage basin. Unless a piece of quoted material is in American English, which should remain, the rest of the text of the article should be in Canajun. Convention about this has mostly applied to titles previously, e.g. Okanogan River instead of Canadian spelling "Okanagan" because most of that river's length and is in the US, Kootenay River instead of "Kootenai" because most of that river's length is in Canada. I haven't really looked at the Yukon and Columbia articles in a while, in the Columbia's case it's clearly mostly American, I'm not sure of the length difference of the Canadian portion of the Yukon vs the American length.Skookum1 (talk) 01:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Stikine River/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mertbiol (talk · contribs) 18:01, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I have read through this very interesting article. It's well written and generally very clear. I have queries on some of the citations and some suggestions for improving the text (below). Please note that I am from the UK and some of my suggested changes may work less well in Canadian English. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 18:01, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Lead section

• I suggest changing the second sentence of the first paragraph to read: "It drains the Stikine Country, a large, remote upland area to the east of the Coast Mountains, and flows west and south for 610 kilometres (379 mi) to the Inside Passage near Wrangell, Alaska."
• I suggest linking "boreal forest" to boreal forest of Canada.
• I suggest changing "natural water route" to "natural waterway".
• I suggest splitting the sentence starting "Used for millennia by indigenous peoples..." into two.
• I suggest linking salmon run.
• Please make "habitat" plural in the final sentence of the second paragraph.
• I suggest changing "outdoor recreation" to "outdoor recreational activities"
• I suggest deleting "and was considered impossible to boat until the 1980s" from the sentence starting "The river's Grand Canyon..."

All done, with slight variations Shannon [ Talk ] 19:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Names

• I suggest splitting the first sentence in two, so that "gave its name to the Stikine group of Tlingit, Shtaxʼhéen Ḵwáan" is either a separate sentence or is in a footnote.

Done Shannon [ Talk ] 19:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Geography

• Reference [3] does not appear to support "The Stikine River basin includes approximately 50,700 km2 (19,600 sq mi)..."
• I suggest rephrasing the first sentence to read "The Stikine River basin covers an area of around 50,700 km2 (19,600 sq mi) in the Stikine Region and Regional District of Kitimat–Stikine, BC and includes the City and Borough of Wrangell, Alaska."
• Please link Inside Passage in the final sentence of the first paragraph, as this is the first mention of the term in the main body of the text.
• I suggest changing "rising over 3,000 metres (9,800 ft)" to "rising to over 3,000 metres (9,800 ft)".
• The term "top out" seems a little too informal for me, would "rise to" be better?
• I suggest moving "Mount Ratz, 3,136 metres (10,289 ft), is the highest point in the Stikine basin." to a footnote.
• Reference [15] (Mount Ratz) does not appear to support "The Coast Mountains, rising over 3,000 metres (9,800 ft), include the highest elevations of the Stikine basin and are extensively glaciated. Mount Ratz, 3,136 metres (10,289 ft)..."
• Please change "The Tahltan Highland is located in between..." to "The Tahltan Highland is between..."
• I suggest moving "One of its most prominent features is 2,787-metre (9,144 ft) Mount Edziza, a dormant stratovolcano and part of the Mount Edziza volcanic complex." to a footnote.
• I suggest linking tundra.
• Reference [20] (Cassiar Iskut-Stikine Land and Resource Management Plan) redirects to a 404 error page.
• Reference [21] (Wrangell Airport, Alaska (509919) Period of Record Monthly Climate Summary) does not appear to support "Due to the rain shadow effect of the Coast Mountains, the interior Stikine basin has a much drier and more variable climate than the coast."

All done- I rephrased some of the sentences slightly differently but it should flow better now. Changed the reference for basin size to U.S. Geological Survey, which I decided was probably the most reliable source. Every source seems to list a different size for the Stikine basin: 49800 km2, 51000 km2, 80290 km2 being a few examples. Shannon [ Talk ] 19:18, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Course

• Would Reference [26] (Watershed Sentinel) be better with the {{cite news}} than with the {{cite web}} template?
• I think Reference [28] (Pitman River) should come after "it turns due west again" rather than before.
• Please change "Below Highway 37, it enters the Grand Canyon of the Stikine..." to "Below Highway 37, the river enters the Grand Canyon of the Stikine..."
• Similarly, in the next sentence, please change "Here, the river flows much more swiftly..." to "Here, it flows much more swiftly..."
• Reference [30] (Stikine River Provincial Park) does not appear to support "...between the Tanzilla and Klastline Plateaus, both sub-plateaus of the Stikine Plateau. Here, the river flows much more swiftly, falling 450 m (1,480 ft) over 80 km (50 mi)."

Working on finding a source for this Shannon [ Talk ] 02:26, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

• Reference [18] (Mount Edziza Provincial Park) does not appear to support "...where ancient basalt flows cover more than 1,000 km2 (390 sq mi)".
• Reference [36] (Hutten, Reyn A.) does not appear to support "The gradient flattens considerably compared to the upper course, and the river becomes wide, braided and muddy with glacial silt."

Working on finding a source for this Shannon [ Talk ] 02:26, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

• Please link "braided" to braided river.
• I suggest changing "The channel gradient in Alaska is nearly flat..." to "In Alaska, the channel has a negligible gradient..."

All done except for the two concerns above Shannon [ Talk ] 02:26, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Discharge

• I suggest rephrasing "The lower Stikine near the international border is generally frozen from..." to "Above its confluence with the Iskut, the Stikine is generally frozen from..." to match reference [43] (Sherwood, Deborah E.).

Geology

• I suggest changing "which" to "that" in the first sentence.
• I suggest changing "starting about 180 million years ago" to "from around 180 million years ago."
• Taku River was previously linked in the Geography section (it is linked twice in the Geology section).

Done Shannon [ Talk ] 06:02, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

History and culture

First peoples

• I suggest changing "for thousands of years it has been used as a trade route by indigenous peoples, who utilized canoes and rafts for river travel" to "for thousands of years it has been used as a trade route by indigenous peoples."
• Reference [26] does not appear to support "who utilized canoes and rafts for river travel".
• The Skeena River and Nass River were previously linked in the Geography section.
• Reference [20] (Cassiar Iskut-Stikine Land and Resource Management Plan) redirects to a 404 error page.
• I suggest rephrasing "the first human presence in this region started about 10,000 years ago" to "the first humans arrived in this region about 10,000 years ago".
• Reference [61] (Southeast Alaska Conservation Assessment) says that the "Stikine Kwan had the largest territory of any Tlingit group–almost 8,000 mi2 (20,480 km2)". Are the "Stikine Kwan" and the "Shtax'héen Kwáan" the same? If so, please check the size of the territory. If not, please provide another reference.

They are the same and seem to be used interchangeably. Shannon [ Talk ] 00:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• I suggest starting a new paragraph with "Tahltan and Tlingit lands met around the confluence of the Stikine and Iskut rivers."
• I suggest linking "dry salmon" to fish preservation.
• I suggest rephrasing "which were not available in such abundance on the coast" to "which were not as/so abundant on the coast".
• I suggest linking dugout canoe and caribou.
• I suggest rephrasing "The Tahltan in turn traded coastal goods with the further inland Kaska and Sekani" to "The Tahltan in turn traded coastal goods with the Kaska and Sekani further inland."

All done Shannon [ Talk ] 00:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Fur trade

• Please add a comma after "Vancouver Expedition" in the first sentence.
• I suggest splitting the sentence starting "In 1799 the Russian-American Company was chartered..." so that "The mouth of the Stikine River became a key route for transporting furs from the interior." is a separate sentence.
• Should "HBD" be "HBC"?
• Please rephrase "After continued tense relations culminating in Tlingit attacks in 1846–47..."

All done/corrected Shannon [ Talk ] 03:51, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Gold rush period

• Please add "were" to "and were soon incorporated into the Colony of British Columbia."
• Please change "and" to "to" in "...assert control over the Tlingit to prevent them from interfering..."
• The sentence "This served as the tribal headquarters until 1920, when its remaining residents moved to Telegraph Creek." is unreferenced.

All done Shannon [ Talk ] 03:50, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

20th century

• Please add a comma after "After the end of the Klondike gold rush".
• I suggest linking "timber" to lumber.
• Please link electric grid.
• The sentence "This is the only bridge across the river other than the Highway 37 bridge." is unreferenced.

Done Shannon [ Talk ] 01:12, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Biota

• Taku River was previously linked in the Geography section
• I suggest linking riparian forest and estuary.

Done Shannon [ Talk ] 03:50, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Recreation and conservation

• Please clarify (either with a footnote or a wikilink) "The Stikine is often floated".

Rephrased. Shannon [ Talk ] 01:15, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

• Please link floatplane.
• Please add a comma after "allowed on the SMZs"
• I suggest rephrasing "Following the plan implementation, about 26 percent of the Stikine basin in BC was within protected areas" to "Following the implementation of the plan, about 26 percent of the basin in BC was protected."
• I suggest rephrasing "The park's highlight is the Grand Canyon of the Stikine, which is almost entirely within the park boundaries. " to "The Grand Canyon of the Stikine is the highlight of the park and is almost entirely within its boundaries."

All done Shannon [ Talk ] 01:15, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Economic use and development

Fishing

• I suggest rephrasing "The portion of the Stikine River in Canada..." to "The Canadian portion of the Stikine River..."

Done Shannon [ Talk ] 03:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Mining

• You have already linked tailings dam, but it may also be worth linking tailings in the final paragraph.

Done Shannon [ Talk ] 03:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Energy and infrastructure projects

• I suggest linking intertie

Done Shannon [ Talk ] 03:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

General issues

• Please check for consistency in your use of "BC" and "British Columbia".

That's all for the first pass. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 18:01, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for taking on this review. I'll be responding to your comments over the next few days. Shannon [ Talk ] 14:44, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@Mertbiol: I have addressed all the concerns you raised previously. Thanks again for looking through it in such detail. Apologies for the delay as work has been busy the past month. Shannon [ Talk ] 01:43, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Second pass

Thanks @Shannon1: I have read through the article again and have added a few additional links. There are just two more missing citations:

• "A common alternative spelling was Stickeen, reflected in the short-lived British Stickeen Territories." (Names section)
• "Chief Shakes of the Tlingit subsequently took control of the fort." (Fur trade subsection)

Other than that, I think the article easily meets the GA criteria, so I will put the review on hold. Best wishes, Mertbiol (talk) 12:02, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

@Mertbiol: I added a source for the first one and have removed the second for now as I can’t find where I got that information from. I may add it back if I find the source. Hope that will be good for now. Shannon [ Talk ] 02:52, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Final verdict

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

This is a very interesting and informative article. It is well written and appears to cover all aspects of the river in depth. Congratulations to @Shannon1: for their hard work to bring this nomination forward. I have no hesitation in promoting it to GA status. Great job!!! Mertbiol (talk) 10:08, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Awesome! Thank you very much and I appreciate your thorough review! Shannon [ Talk ] 00:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 17:26, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

"Grand Canyon" section of the Stikine River

• ... that navigation on parts of the Stikine River (pictured) was once reserved for the Stikine people during summer, and the Tahltan during winter? Source: Tahltan Ethnoarchaeology http://archpress.lib.sfu.ca/index.php/archpress/catalog/book/61
  • ALT1: ... that according to Tlingit legend, the Stikine River (pictured) once flowed through a tunnel under a glacier? Source: Haa Shuká, Our Ancestors. Tlingit Oral Narratives https://tlingitlanguage.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Dauenhauer-1987-Haa-Shuk%c3%a1.pdf
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Adriana Salvatierra
  • Comment: An alternative picture could be File:Stikine Delta.jpg, but it's less exciting imo.

Improved to Good Article status by Shannon1 (talk). Nominated by LordPeterII (talk) at 20:40, 13 October 2022 (UTC).

Substantial GA, on plenty of excellent sources, offline sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. I like the original hook slightly better, for it's mentioning of the peoples. The image is licensed and spectacular. This article looks like a potential FA to me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:20, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

• @LordPeterII: could you please provide me with the relevant quote citation for ALT1? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her)
  • @Theleekycauldron: Ah, it's actually primarily in the other source, this one: According to these legends, Great Glacier once spanned the entire width of the lower Stikine River on page 1. Combine that with At one place, there, in the river, the river flowed under a glacier from the other source and it should give ALT1. But maybe ALT0 is actually more interesting, since it's not merely a legend. –LordPeterII (talk) 16:15, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
    • @LordPeterII: hmm, then I think calling it a "tunnel" might be a little synth-y. ALT0 doesn't quite grab me – maybe it would if it mentioned a timeframe (to make it clear that it's an agreement thing, not a legal thing), but I'm not a huge fan, to be honest. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:25, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• @Theleekycauldron: Well, then you have poor taste! (trying to be more confrontational :P) However, how about these modifications:

• ALT0a: ... that the Stikine and Tahltan once agreed that navigation on parts of the Stikine River (pictured) was reserved for the former during summer, and for the latter during winter?
• ALT1a: ... that according to Tlingit legend, the Stikine River (pictured) once flowed under a glacier?

Can't exactly mention a timeframe other than "before Europeans" since I didn't see precise dates in the sources. ALT0a might make it clearer, although it's now a bit long. But if not, there's ALT1a. –LordPeterII (talk) 21:53, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

@LordPeterII: ha! I can approve ALT1a :) As for ALT0a, did the Tlingit have exclusive use of that part of the river during summer, or were they just the only ones to make that trip? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:59, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Hmm idk... and frankly, ALT1a isn't bad, and less convoluted :) Let's just go with that one. –LordPeterII (talk) 22:04, 29 October 2022 (UTC)