Talk:Sayings of Jesus on the cross

Forsaken in Aramaic

Currently the article gives "In Aramaic, the phrase was/is rendered, "אלי אלי למה סואחטאני"." I am no Aramaic scholar but is this correct? סואחטאני does not transliterate as σαβαχθανί (sabachthani). Perhaps it should be שבקתני? Greenshed (talk) 19:22, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

I teach Hebrew and a little Aramaic. Greenshed is right to question the transliteration, which looks like gibberish to me. It should be rendered שבקתני.Ciacg (talk) 01:25, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

====

Sorry guys, am seeing this rather late (based on the date you have posted your debate comments here), but I beg to DIFFER with you, GREATLY!

As a LINGUIST & NATIVE HEBREW speaker as well as a speaker of Arabic & some Aramaic. I would ascertain that Jesus's last words (when addressing God) would be more in line with the Hebrew root verb: ז-ב-ח to sacrifice!), This can become quite CONFUSING as, in Arabic, the (RELATED, MIND YOU!) verb for: massacre (ظبح) would be pronounced in Hebrew as: DHabach/ד'בח while, in Hebrew, it would be spelled with the letter: טבח) ט). Hence, Jesus ןs asking God: "? אלוהי, למה זבחתני" (God, why have you SACRIFICED me?). However, Jesus could have equally well have asked God: "? אלוהי, למה טבחתני" (My God, why have you massacred me?=Elo'hee, lama te'vah'tanee) or, "? אלוהי, למה שבקתני" (My God, why have you taken the life out of me?=Elo'hee, lama she'vaq'tanee)-even: "? אלוהי, למה זנחתני" (My God, why have you forsaken me?=Elo'hee, lama znah'tanee). Either way, ALL FOUR question-"scenarios" are possible & would make sense! There is NO DEFINITIVE way of STATING what EXACTLY Jesus has said on the cross. My gut feeling/intuition guides me to the verb with the meaning of: sacrifice (would make much more sense to me that Jesus did NOT make himself or want to come across as a FAITHLESS God's VICTIM by asking God why he has forsaken him (questioning God's positive nature & faith in his human creation-especially, when some of Jesus followers, consider Jesus to be: the "son God" & his father forsaking him would NOT hold much ground...! However, to sacrifice someone is in line with the idea that Jesus was sent to Earth to "pay" for (& wash off) human sins & was sacrificed like a pure lamb on God's alter/for God's sake. AK63 (talk) 10:26, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Verse for Psalm 22?

In all English translations of Psalm 22:1 (according to BibleGateway.com), "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" or words to that effect appear in verse 1. However, the link cited (Hebrew and English):

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2622.htm#1

shows that phrase in verse 2.

Should a different link be used for verse 1? Or should the citation text say "Psalm 22:2" to match the existing link?

FYI, a discussion of this section has been archived:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sayings_of_Jesus_on_the_cross/Archive_1#Query_on_%22My_God,_my_God,_why_have_you_forsaken_me?%22

100.35.136.237 (talk) 04:19, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Fixing translation inconsistency

I want to explain two changes I made with this edit.

Firstly, the opening section redundantly listed the sayings three times. I deleted the latter two of these lists, as the table contains all the necessary information (viz. the order of the sayings, and which gospels they come from).

Secondly, the Bible quotes throughout the article were confusingly taken from a variety of different translations – NIV, KJV, NKJV, NRSV, ESV. And adding to this confusion, the cited translation was frequently not the one the quote was taken from. For consistency, I've converted all the quotes to KJV. I chose KJV because: (a) it's already the most-used translation in the article; (b) it's public domain, so no copyright issues with quoting from it; and (c) these are the best-known versions of the sayings (for instance, "they know not what they do" is almost proverbial, as opposed to NIV's "they do not know what they are doing").

Any issues, feel free to revert and discuss. Dan from A.P. (talk) 11:41, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Psalms column in comparison table

this edit piqued my curiosity because the listed psalm number did not correspond at all with the actual text, so the removal seemed valid. I discovered that the psalm numbers were originally added in February 2021 along with the table by Nederlandse Leeuw, but they were removed that September for being potentially confusing by DanFromAnotherPlace (now Sojourner in the earth). They were then re-added in April 2023 by Hfst, presumably from the German article, where they were also added by Nederlandse Leeuw in February 2021. I don't know much about this subject but they do indeed seem problematic ... there's so much variance across Bible versions and they're often not direct quotes. For these reasons I've removed them again from this article. Graham87 03:42, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

@Graham87 thanks for your investigations and remarks. I am very sorry, that I did not check the verses.

Now I looked up the seven words in my Luther Bible#Luther 84 bible. This bible gives links to psalm words (and also to other words). Now the table in the german version only give links as mentioned in Luther 84. Now word 5 only links to ps 22,16-which is not obvious but as I chose this way, I have no choice.

—Hfst (talk) 04:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks for this. Two of the sayings (4 and 7) are direct quotes from the Psalms, and this is mentioned in the relevant sections. The other sayings are sometimes considered to be indirect allusions to the Psalms (e.g. "It is finished" may allude to Psalm 22:31, "he hath done this"), but this is a matter of scholarly debate, and needs more precise explication than a table entry can provide. Another reason why that column of the table may confuse readers is that it gives the impression that the Psalms contain a record of Jesus's last words, when in fact they were written hundreds of years earlier. Many Christians do indeed believe that the Psalms prophesied Jesus's coming, but Wikipedia should not seem to be endorsing that idea. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 04:58, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know christian reading of the psalms is reading them as prophetry to Jesus; as well as eg. Jesaja. Therefore "many christians" might not be correct. However I assume that many christians are less interested in psalms. Therefore if we mention the psalms we do not endorse anything.

However there is an other point of view: If we take the texts as Literary criticism does then there are authors of the gospels, who know more or less about the psalms and therefore intentional use words of the psalms in their texts. Therefore I cannot agree that mention the psalms endors an idea or an believing of someone.

In the german table I removed the Link to Ps22,31 as Luther 84 does not connect Joh 19,30 to Ps22,31. With using the links of a given edition of the bible this linking is not original ressearch but reporting known knowledge.

However, in the end I must trust in the translators for details as I do not know greek or hebraic. Hfst (talk) 07:27, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Quick first response: I agree that there may be cases of OR/SYNTH in the table, but that is as much true of comparisons between Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John as it is true of comparisons between the Psalms on one hand and Mark/Matthew and Luke on the other. If we demand WP:SECONDARY sources for one comparison, we should demand them for all. And I'm prepared to do that, so I'll try and see if I can find some. Most modern critical editions of the Bible will have cross-references that connect NT passages to OT passages, and I expect these to be no different. E.g. the Sermon on the Mount is largely made up of recyclings from OT passages that have been worded slightly differently (also depending on textual variants and translations). Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:13, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

PS: I should add that some chapters and verses of the Bible may differ from one edition to the next. E.g. in lots of Bible editions of the Psalms, the first and second verse are presented as verse #1 and verse #2, but in lots of other Bible editions, these are grouped together as verse #1. Consequently, the whole numbering of verses in the rest of the Psalm will be one off between editions. In other books of the Bible the difference is even more significant, e.g. Numbers 16:42–50 in the English New International Version (NIV) correspond to Numbers [Numeri] 17:7–15 in the Dutch nl:Nieuwe Bijbelvertaling (NBV).

It's a well-known problem, especially if there are different language-based traditions between e.g. English, Dutch and German traditions. So if there is a difference between the verses does not necessarily mean there are no similarities between an NT saying of Jesus on the Cross and an OT Psalm, just that we may be looking in the wrong place. Not sure if that is the case here, but let me check. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:22, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

User:Nederlandse_Leeuw/Kruiswoordpuzzel I'm making an overview here. I can already report that

• in the nl:Nieuwe Bijbelvertaling (NBV), it is Psalm 22 verse TWO which says Mijn God, mijn God, waarom hebt u mij verlaten? ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken/abandoned me?"). debijbel.nl. The cross-reference explicitly says: Jes. [Isaiah] 49:14, Mat. [Matthew] 27:46, Marc. [Mark] 15:34
• in the New International Version (NIV), it is Psalm 22 verse ONE which says: My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? biblehub.com. Footnote a explicitly says: Cited in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34

So a simple check already shows that the verse is there, but not every Bible edition counts this verse the same way. Nevertheless, both of them agree that Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:46 explicitly quote Psalms 22 verse 1 / 2 here (just as I expected them to). What I didn't expect is the NBV to identify yet another cross-reference to Isaiah 49:14, which says: Zion says: The LORD has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me. (NIV), or Sion zegt: De HEER heeft mij verlaten, mijn Heer is mij vergeten. ("Zion says: the LORD has forsaken/forgotten me, my Lord has forgotten me.") This is slightly different, and the NIV does not identify this as a cross-reference or quote, but the similarities are there. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:37, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Now the real test: what does the original Hebrew of Psalm 22:1/2 say, and how does that compare to the Aramaic and Greek of Mark 15:34 and Matthew 27:46? Keeping in mind that Hebrew and Aramaic are two closely related but different Semitic languages.

• אֵלִ֣י אֵ֭לִי לָמָ֣ה עֲזַבְתָּ֑נִי‎, ’ê-lî ’ê-lî lā-māh ‘ă-zaḇ-tā-nî;, 'My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?' Psalm 22:1 Westminster Leningrad Codex + NIV
• Ἐλωῒ Ἐλωῒ λεμὰ σαβαχθάνι ὅ ἐστιν μεθερμηνευόμενον Ὁ Θεός μου ὁ Θεός μου εἰς τί ἐγκατέλιπές με;, '“Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).' Mark 15:34 Greek Study Bible + NIV
• ἐλώι ἐλώι λεμὰ σαβαχθανί; τοῦτ’ ἐστιν Θεέ μου θεέ μου, ἱνατί με ἐγκατέλιπες;, '“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).' Matthew 27:46 Greek Study Bible + NIV

Apart from some metathesis (linguistics) from the Hebrew word ‘ăzaḇtānî to the Aramaic word sabachthani, this is the exact same sentence. And that fact has been known by scholars for centuries. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:07, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

As for Psalm 31:5 and Luke 23:46, the best comparison is probably made between the Septuagint and NT:

• "Into Your hand I commit my spirit." Psalm 31:5 NIV, directly translated from Hebrew
• εις χείρας σου παραθήσομαι το πνεύμά μου "Into your hands I shall place my spirit." Psalm 31:5 ABP
• "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46 KJV)
• "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" (Luke 23:46 NIV)
• πάτερ, εἰς χεῖρας σου παρατίθεμαι τὸ πνεῦμα μου. "Father, Into your hands I place my spirit." Luke 23:46 ABP

Note that the Greek version of Psalm 31:5 and the Greek version of Luke 23:46 use almost the exact same words, including the plural "hands" (while the Hebrew original of Psalm 31:5 uses singular "hand"), and they use the same verb for "to place", only Psalm 31:5 uses future tense, and Luke 23:46 uses present tense. Perhaps needless to say, NIV places footnote e in Luke 23:46, saying: Psalm 31:5. It is not a mystery to modern editions of the Bible that Jesus in Luke 23:46 is quoting the Greek version of Psalm 31:5 almost verbatim. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 15:33, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

All this can be discussed in the article with refs to scholarly sources. Tables are best used for the presentation of very simple information – so, for example, if I look at the words "I thirst", I can follow the row along, glance at the column headers, and immediately understand that this is a saying of Jesus on the cross which is found in John 19:28. When we have to start explaining things ("Well, yes, the passage is found in Psalms, or at least a very similar passage, but it has a different context and has nothing to do with Jesus, although it probably inspired the gospel writers but then again there's this other verse which is also very similar, etc. etc.") then it's better to provide this information in prose format. Sojourner in the earth (talk) 16:43, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

I think simple references will suffice. In the case of Isaiah 49:14, we may consider an explanatory footnote. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 18:07, 10 July 2023 (UTC)