Talk:Ancient trackway

I'm very happy that this new article is being 'cleaned up', altered and added to, but without wishing to cause offence, I'm removing the 'in England' clause that's been added:

• I'm sure modern roads follow ancient trackways in other parts of Europe, Asia, Africa, N & S America, and this must surely even include the USA?
• I assume that by 'England', the writer meant 'the UK' (England, Scotland, Wales etc)
• I'm writing this from where I live, on the side of an ancient ridgeway, in the island of Jersey (UK but definitely not England)

--Nigelj 22:11, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

---

Hi, I added the 'England' because it looked at that point as if the article was about that area of the world (our modern roads). I hasten to point out that apart from never having been further west than the Isle of Skye I have lived beside a Roman road myself and find the subject very interesting.

Anyway, welcome to Wikipedia :-).

The cleanup message is there (if I hadn`t added it, someone else would have done shortly) to indicate the article needs a little work before it can be considered truly "encyclopedic" (I'm not sure what the exact definition is, there's an explanation page somewhere but I can't find it right now). Anecdotal passages written in the first person do tend to get edited into something more "formal" though, if you get my drift.

Keep up the good work!

--Ianb 21:21, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Britain only???

Why is this article still so Britain-centric? I can't believe that there were no neolithic or mesolithic migration routes, ridgeways or other trackways in any of the rest of the world??? C'mon guys, open things up a little... --Nigelj 07:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course not Britain only

... but the article specifically says that this is a term used in Britain to describe what it then goes on to talk about. OK - so it needs expanding: here are one or two references to get things going, but the whole article then needs delineating: and then perhaps there should be separate articles referring to each part of the world cross-referred from it.

• Mesopotania: 5000 years old
• Japan
• Mexico

and see

• Road which refers to ancient roads
• Category:Silk Road

Soory didn't sign it! Peter Shearan 15:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Loss of Material

I just restored this article to the state in was in as of December 2010. Recent edits by Highking have resulted in the loss of a significant amount of material, including photographs, and these edits are unexplained. The Roman Candle (talk) 07:32, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I see that you also deleted several refs and citations in the process. Agreed, you re-inserted the 'uncited' banner, but can't we try to find some citations for what is there? --Nigelj (talk) 09:56, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, of course. I just reverted as an interim measure to restore lost material. Some citations are needed, and an expansion to cover other areas. I'll look at it when I've more time - bit pushed at the moment. The Roman Candle (talk) 11:05, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Having just restored material that may have been inadvertently deleted, I find myself wondering about the whole section "The beginnings". I don't see how it relates to the subject, other than in a very tangential way. Should this section be deleted in its entirety (I did move one relevant sentence out of it)? The Roman Candle (talk) 21:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I again reverted Highking as a result of no explanation apart from the edit summary being given for the removal of material. Should the first two sections, "The beginnings" and "The trackways" be merged into a single section? The one seems to follow straight on from the other. The Roman Candle (talk) 12:48, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

It seems we were caught in an edit conflict - I reverted and then started adding material. Apologies for doing this, I had spent considerable time putting this article together. I've overhauled the article so that it doesn't look like it should be renamed "Ancient trackways of Britain", and added information about many other trackways from around the world. I've readded the material that existed about the British trackways, but I believe the article is still too weighted in that direction. --HighKing (talk) 13:23, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, excellent work if I might say so. I was a bit quick off the mark with my reverting there. Sorry about that. The Roman Candle (talk) 20:00, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. There's a number of other notable trackways I'll add in time that I know about, not all "human". --HighKing (talk) 21:24, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Overlap with other articles

Trackway, Ancient trackway and Ichnite - see Talk:Trackway. cheers Geopersona (talk) 05:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Track and footprint

I find the use of the word "trackway" in this article a little confusing, because it refers to both "footprints" and trails and footpaths. Perhaps the references to fossil footprints should be moved from this article, so that it focuses just on trails? Rwood128 (talk) 15:37, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

An article Fossil trackway exists. Rwood128 (talk) 12:05, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Partial merge

I have copied all the discussion of fossil tracks to the article Fossil trackway. Unless there is disagreement I will shortly revise this article so that it focuses solely on trails. I hope that this is the correct way to proceed–please advise if this violates any rule.

I agree Rwood128 that the elements of this article that refer to fossil footprints, tracks and trails can (and to my mind, should) be merged with Fossil trackway. They are distinct from other types of tracks and trackways. It will clarify both articles if you proceed with the merge. I'm glad you are working on this area, and hope to pull out some of my books on the subject, and look through other research materials - maybe I can provide some help in regards to citations. Just so you know, I may be a bit slow in getting to this, but it is on my to-do list. Netherzone (talk) 23:11, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Netherzone many thanks for your helpful comments. I will wait a couple of more days, for any further comments, before making any revisions. Rwood128 (talk) 11:53, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I had also suggested on Timber trackway that, that article should be merged with this article. Rwood128 (talk) 12:14, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Unless there are objections I will delete all material relating to Fossil trackways from this article and revise the lede. Rwood128 (talk) 12:20, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

I do not object, Rwood128, thank you for the work you are doing on these articles. Netherzone (talk) 18:02, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Cadbury Castle

Where is the bridge, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_trackway#Crossroads_at_bridges>?

I will look through my library to try to find the location of the former bridge at Cadbury Castle. Do you think this is an acceptable image for the Brownhills trackway? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Watling_Street_Richborough.jpg Netherzone (talk) 19:28, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

The image is fine, but Richborough is a long way from Brownhills and some scholars, apparently, don't see the Watling Street going to the Midlands. I can find nothing about Brownhills being at a crossroad of other tracks. I also wonder about Wallingford–what are the other tracks that are supposed to meet there? Rwood128 (talk) 20:39, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Crossroads at bridges

I wonder if the other trackways can be named? But we should look for citations to support the claim. Rwood128 (talk) 11:44, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Historic roads

There is a parallel article called Historic roads. The lead reads: "Historic roads are existing or once existent travel routes of historic significance. They typically cover great distances." This article includes most of the world. Should they be merged? Rwood128 (talk) 15:31, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

The above leads to the question of what is meant by ancient, and what should be included here–and indeed in Historic roads? Also, should a full section on paved Roman roads be included in this article? Currently the article includes trackways up until the nineteenth century, as well as an image of a sixteenth century German timber trackway. Rwood128 (talk) 16:05, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Merge into "Historic roads" article?

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the term ancient, as used here, as "specifically applied to the period of history before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. In this sense contrasted with modern, and mediæval". That is this article should not include anything from after 476 A.D. Therefore, the scope of Ancient trackways is narrower than Historic roads, which can include roads from the more recent past, as well as ancient ones. I suggest that this article should be merged into the "Historic roads" article, to avoid duplication Rwood128 (talk) 18:18, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

As there has been objections I'll merge the articles shortly. Rwood128 (talk) 17:35, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

There is material in this article relating to Great Britain that I do not plan to merge into the Historic roads article. That includes the "Crossroads" section, because it is too vague, and relates to major tracks dealt with elsewhere. The general preamble, at the beginning of the section, can apply th routes throughout the world, and lacks citations. Unless there are objections, I suggest that they are deleted when the merge takes place (or shortly before). Rwood128 (talk) 12:35, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

To my mind, there is a significant difference between an ancient trackway and historic road. But I am not an expert in the field, just an interested researcher. Netherzone (talk) 16:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Neither am I an expert. I was working from the fact that the Historic roads article included many ancient roads/trackways, along with a definition of "historic" meaning anything in the past, which would include ancient trackways that existed before 477 AD. Perhaps, Netherzone, you can state what you mean by "a significant difference"? This needs to be discussed further before any merge is made. Rwood128 (talk) 18:07, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Greetings Rwood128, it would seem that a trackway is more aligned to traces and trails that are footpaths for undomesticated animals and humans - a way of getting from one place to another; whereas roads could also accommodate domesticated pack animals such as horses, mules, as well as vehicles such as carts, wagons, etc. In other words, the latter might have more to do with commerce. Netherzone (talk) 18:16, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Netherzone, do you have any sources that support this? I found the following from The Ridgeway article: "The Ridgeway provided a reliable trading route to the Dorset coast and to the Wash in Norfolk". The Harroway likewise was a coast to coast route. The length of the trackways would further support the idea that they had a commercial role. Rwood128 (talk) 21:06, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I will look for this information over the weekend, to see if it can be supported. Tomorrow is Thanksgiving holiday here in the US, and today is all about cooking. :-) Netherzone (talk) 22:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Happy Thanksgiving Netherzone! Rwood128 (talk) 23:04, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Rwood128! I spotted this differentiation between trackways and roads online, which may be of interest: "As here defined, the term ‘trackway’ refers to a linear route which has been marked on the ground surface over time by the passage of traffic. Trackways are usually relatively short routes for local use. A ‘road’, on the other hand, is a route which has been deliberately engineered. Roads tend to be major routes running for longer distances than trackways, often between towns." and "Roads were an innovation brought to Britain with the Roman invasion of AD 43. Their initial purpose was to speed the progress of the conquest by allowing messages, reinforcements and supplies to be transported quickly from established bases to the conflict zone." The source for these definitions are found in in Pre-Industrial Roads, Trackways and Canals, by the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England. https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/iha-preindustrial-roads-trackways-canals/preindustrialroadstrackwayscanals/ I quickly glanced through the first part of the document, and it seems there is some good information in it. After the holiday (and much eating) I will look deeper into various resources. Netherzone (talk) 23:16, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Many thanks, Netherzone. This is getting interesting. But trackway is frequently used for lengthy routes, at least on Wikipedia: "The Icknield Way is an ancient trackway in southern and eastern England that goes from Norfolk to Wiltshire"; "Watling Street is a route in England that began as an ancient trackway first used by the Britons, mainly between the areas of modern Canterbury and St Albans using a natural ford near Westminster." I'll check further. Rwood128 (talk) 00:59, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

The Encyclopaedia Britannica online has: "Pilgrims’ Way, the North Downs trackway in southern England". "To the east [in Ceredigion] there is evidence of a Roman trackway, known as Sarn Helen"; "Icknield Way, famous prehistoric trackway across England from Norfolk to Wiltshire". Rwood128 (talk) 11:52, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

I've looked more closely at the document from the Historic England website ("Pre-Industrial Roads, Trackways and Canals"). This seems to reflect a recent change in thinking, which suggests that the Encyclopaedia Britannica and Wikipedia maybe now out-of-date. However, this document does suggest that some upland trackways "were used in prehistory". And, also, that "Trackways are usually relatively short routes" [my emphasis]. I'll look more thoroughly at the Historic England's document and for other sources. Rwood128 (talk) 13:01, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe it's a particular flaw of the Historic Roads page but very few of the roads it discusses seem to be in the same vein as the northern-European ancient trackways. These are not large trade routes or real roads built by empires, the only similar things are references to a couple of native American tracks and trails. If we wish to avoid duplication I'd suggest, rather than merging, removing the information on ancient trackways from the historic roads page where it seems out of place. Hedge89 (talk) 15:16, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Many thanks Hedge89. I suggested the merge on the basis that "historic" means: "Having or likely to have great historical importance or fame" (OED). This suggests to me that an historic road can be one that existed before the fall of the Roman Empire in AD 476. Rwood128 (talk) 18:09, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

User:Rwood128 Aye I get you, I agree that ancient can definitely include various things that are historic, though I think many ancient trackways may fail to qualify as roads. Either in the general sense or in the sense of "historic roads": "A wide way leading from one place to another, especially one with a specially prepared surface which vehicles can use." or "historical [with modifier]: A regular trade route for a particular commodity. ‘the Silk Road across Asia to the West’" (both OED). While some may have been trade routes many appear to have been more akin to paths than roads, for the transit of people more than goods. I agree with you on time-frame, however I'm not convinced that most ancient trackways actually fall under the category of historic roads and should probably be removed from that page. Hedge89 (talk) 19:10, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again Hedge89 for your helpful comments. However, the word "road" is applied, at times, to trackways, including the Sweet Track: "This dating led to claims that the Sweet Track was the oldest roadway in the world" (Wikipedia article). See also the lede: [3] "an ancient British roadway, a ridgeway". The lede to the article Road reads:

"A road is a thoroughfare, route, or way on land between two places that has been paved or otherwise improved to allow travel by foot or some form of conveyance, including a motor vehicle, cart, bicycle, or horse."

Presumably many old routes, such as the Silk Road were improved by the pounding of feet and hooves. Many so called roads would not have been originally improved.

The OED has this for a road:

"A path or way between different places, or leading to some place. Originally: a way wide enough to allow horses, travellers on foot, or horse-drawn vehicles or the like, to pass; (later) a wide way which motor vehicles, cyclists, etc., can use, typically having a specially prepared surface". Rwood128 (talk) 21:32, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

A Google search suggests that the term "historic road" is used most often in the USA [1] and Canada. However, I found other examples, searching the British Library's catalogue [2] including "The Route to a History of the Cultural Landscape: a Danish Record of Prehistoric and Historic Roads, Tracks and Related Structures". Bang, J.; Bergerbrant, S.; Sabatini, S. BAR international series. VOL 2508, ; 2013, 703-718 -- TEMPUS REPARATSM Part; (pages 703-718) -- 2013.

Note the distinction here between "Prehistoric" and "historic". However some historic trade routes, such as the Salt road, appear to have originated in prehistoric times.

Perhaps, instead of merging the two articles, the title of this article might be changed to Prehistoric roads, and the time span covered by both articles clarified? Or is it a better idea to have one article for Historic and prehistoric roads"? Rwood128 (talk) 13:52, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Respectfully, I do not agree that in the US and Canada historic tracks and trails are synonymous with historic roads. The link above refers to roads: asphalt-paved roads and highways that roughly follow the course of a few ancient paths. In the US a road is engineered for vehicles: cars and trucks. Trails and trackways are generally footpaths - for humans and animals. It sounds like terminology is different in the UK, but for North American English-speaking users of the encyclopedia, the proposed change may be confusing. Netherzone (talk) 16:21, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, Netherzone, I should have researched this more carefully! There is a possible difference in usage. I noted above that, the word "road" is applied, at times, to trackways, including the Sweet Track: "This dating led to claims that the Sweet Track was the oldest roadway in the world" (Wikipedia article). See also the lede: [3] "an ancient British roadway, a ridgeway". And also the OED's definition of "road", quoted above (highlighted). Rwood128 (talk) 18:59, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Rwood128, I don't have access to the complete OED, but the abridged copy I have at home cites the following definition for track: The mark or marks left by a person, animal or thing in passing; a trail, a wheel-rut, the wake of a ship, a series of footprints. That seems very accurate for this article. Trackway is not in my abridged version at all (not the most recent version), and trail has too many other definitions that it may be confusing. Road seems too utilitarian to use for an ancient path that might have begun as an animal migration trail that then developed into a hominid/human trail. I don't have a citation to back up that claim, (animal trail to human use), though, so I defer to your decision. Thank you for all the work you are doing to clean up these articles. Netherzone (talk) 22:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Trackway is "an ancient roadway" according to The Canadian Oxford Dictionary (1998) (also OED online); and "an ancient road", The Chambers Dictionary (13 edition); Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (online) gives only: 1: "a beaten or trodden path", or 2: "a series of fossil footprints (as of a dinosaur)". The Encyclopaedia Britannica online has this:

ANCIENT ROADS OF THE MEDITERRANEAN AND MIDDLE EAST

The first roads were paths made by animals and later adapted by humans. The earliest records of such paths have been found around some springs near Jericho and date from about 6000 bc. The first indications of constructed roads date from about 4000 bc and consist of stone-paved streets at Ur in modern-day Iraq and timber roads preserved in a swamp in Glastonbury, England.

Hi Netherzone, these definitions, from what you say, appear to differ from American usage. That can be dealt with in the ledes. Do you think that the titles should be changed? I suggest Ancient track and Historic roads and trails. Rwood128 (talk) 23:29, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Merge?? Rwood128 (talk) 23:41, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Rwood128, Historic roads and trails and Ancient track sound fine. Netherzone (talk) 05:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Hello again Rwood128, I had one last thought this morning. Is there a reason why these roads/trails/paths/tracks are defined in terms of the Roman Empire? That seems to apply to Europe, parts of Eurasia and north Africa. Would pre-industrial age or some other more global way of determining "ancient" or "historical" be more encompassing? Just a thought. I think it's OK as it is, but am thinking about the nuances... Netherzone (talk) 16:07, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Netherzone. The OED has for "ancient": "a. Specifically applied to the period of history before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. In this sense contrasted with modern, and mediæval". And the Wikipedia article Ancient history has: "Ancient History covers all continents inhabited by humans in the 3,000 BC – 500 AD period."

This period is also "historic". I'd also suggest that, in one sense of "historic", even a prehistoric monument such as Stonehenge is historic: that is, has "great historical importance or fame". Rwood128 (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Hedge89 given the dictionary definitions of "trackway" above, as well as the quotation on "roads" from the Encyclopaedia Britannica online, and my comment immediately above this, do you still object to a merge? Also Netherzone what do you think should be done? Rwood128 (talk) 17:31, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Hello Rwood128 - I don't object to the changes you propose. Your rationale is solid. Netherzone (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Wittmoor Bog Trackways

The later trackway does not count for this page (too recent) though the former is within range. Neither however is prehistoric, as Germany definitely had written history before 4th Century AD/CE. Not sure if it's worth fixing for now if this might be merged but something to consider in future if we decide not to. Hedge89 (talk) 15:25, 24 November 2018 (UTC)