Talk:Cornstalk (Shawnee leader)

Curse

RE: The so-called "curse" is mostly likely bogus...

I have not found any references to the "curse" of Cornstalk that were written or reported prior to the late-20th Century...

On the other hand -- according to an account written by Rev. William Henry Foote, published in the Southern Literary Messenger, Volume 16, Issue 9, pp. 533-540, Richmond, Virginia. 1850, Transcribed by Valerie F. Crook, 1998, Cornstalk's dying words (actually Cornstalk's words directed to Cornstalk's dying son) were:

My son, the Great Spirit has seen fit that we should die together; and has sent you here. It is his will. Let us submit. It is best.

See: Cornstalk, The Shawnee Chief

--Wva-usa 11:55, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good point (though the precise wording of Cornstalk's dying words in that 1850 account may reflect some poetic license). I wonder if the "curse" stories date from after Cornstalk's reburial in 1954? I've added a link about the reburial, written in 1954. It (significantly) does not mention any curse.--Kevin Myers 18:42, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Prior to 1954, the location of the new court house was the "old Point Clinic". Right next to it is the old Court House, anexed. The new court house, which still stands today as does the old one (built late 1850s), was finished about 1957. Indeed, Cornstalk's remains had been removed to the Main street side of the old Clinic at the corner of the old red light intersection and approach to the Silver Bridge Ramp. The older marker stone mentioned in the article was in the grassy lawn at the corner of the mentioned junction, "against" the old Clinic, grass-side of the building. Some of we locals were born in that clinic over-looking Cornstalk's grave, then, in that small lawn there on the then corner of Main St & US 35. The "Curse Legend" pre-dates the removal of Cornstalk's grave to Tu-end-u-we Park. It was another popular camp-fire ghost stories from way back. The local "ghost story" Legend has varied through many decades from before the Civil War. One of the earliest forms of the ghost story includes a large red hawk that flies over the "Point" (The State Park) and being a totem of the Legend of the ancient "Spirit People" of the Kanawha Valley, today called the Azgen Legend (originally Pre-historic Holy-People Ghosts)... Conaughy (talk) 20:31, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I visited Tu-Endie-Wei State Park this spring and was surprised to see that Cornstalk's grave is in the corner of the park, right beside the restrooms. (This is visible in the photo of the monument in that article). 98.157.82.42 (talk) 03:41, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Lifted Text

The majority of this page appears to be lifted wholesale from http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=77. I will be working on it over the next couple of weeks as part of the Indigenous Peoples Wikiproject. MinervaK (talk) 03:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Good job on noticing that. The plagiarism seems to have taken place in this edit from July 2008. I've reverted to a barebones but basically good version of the article from before the plagiarism. This version of the article was written back before we used footnotes, but the information is all correct. I can add footnotes to the existing information before or after you take a crack at the article, whichever you prefer. —Kevin Myers 06:26, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Hey Kevin, I was actually working on it while you did the reversion. I've saved a copy of my edits and will go back in and merge my stuff over the next 24 hours or so. If you want to add footnotes after that, please feel free. Thanks MinervaK (talk) 08:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

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Burial marker

I think it is safe to say that Cornstalk's burial marker is at Tu-Endie-Wei State Park, based on this entry in the Historical Marker Database, and that likely that is where his bones are. However, I have the feeling that the Historical_Marker_Database is not considered fully reliable, e.g. [1]. I made these edits based on the marker and other material I found. However, I could not find any decent secondary source that mentions makes it clear that is where Cornstalk is buried. Hopefully someone can such a source. Please feel to revert any of my edits. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Portraits

This is actually Cornplanter

File:Cornstalk by Sherman.jpg

presumably copyrighted

obviously fictitious portrait

It would be great if there was an authentic portrait of Cornstalk, but I believe there is not. The nice engraving I just removed from the article is actually Cornplanter, not Cornstalk. The modern color portrait by Hal Sherman is presumably copyrighted, although it's a derivative work. The description says "after a Smithsonian engraving by McKenney and Hall." It would be great if McKenney and Hall included a portrait of Cornstalk in History of the Indian Tribes of North America, but Cornstalk died long before that project got started. I believe Sherman's painting is actually based on this image, which is an old engraving (probably fictitious) that we might be able to use. The engraving from Frost's Pictorial History of Indian Wars and Captivities (1872) is fictitious and not great but maybe the best we have right now. Kevin1776 (talk) 03:58, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

FYI: I made a note of this as the Image Talk Page on commons. Good catch. GenQuest ^"scribble" 06:36, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Related articles needed

In case anyone is looking to create some new articles, there are two subjects related to Cornstalk that are, somewhat surprisingly, not on Wikipedia: the "Kerr Creek Massacre" of 1759 (during the F&I War) and the "Clendenin Massacre" of 1763 (during Pontiac's War). Both events are all over the internet [2] [3] [4], under a variety of names. American colonists attributed these raids to Cornstalk long after his death, although of course there's no contemporary documented evidence of his involvement. It would be interesting to see what reliable sources can be found for writing such articles, should someone decide to take the plunge. Kevin1776 (talk) 07:04, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

"... important voice of moderation"

This line in the intro is presented as fact but it is an opinion. I have no problems with the same sentiment later in the article as it is clearly cited as an (even educated) opinion. --Óli Gneisti (talk) 21:12, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 17 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Alternative targets as discussed below, Corn stalk and Cornstalk (Shawnee leader). Cornstalk redirected to DAB page Corn stalk. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bobby Cohn (talk) 18:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

---

• Cornstalk → Cornstalk (Shawnee chief)
• Corn Stalk → Corn stalk (disambiguation)

– "Corn Stalk" is currently the title of the disambiguation page that lists "corn stalk", "Corn Stalk", "cornstalk", and "Cornstalk" topics. Only one of the various subjects listed there (a series of defensive moves in chess) would capitalize "Stalk" under Wikipedia's capitalization conventions, so the disambiguation page's title should be lowercased, but "Corn stalk" ordinarily refers to the stem of the maize plant, so the disambiguation page should have "(disambiguation)" appended. It is very surprising that Corn stalk is a red link – that should redirect to maize. "Cornstalk" is another common way to write the same term, and has several alternative meanings (especially including the stem of the maize plant, for example). It seems unlikely that the Shawnee chief is so well known as to be a properly dominant WP:primary topic for "cornstalk". "Cornstalk" should redirect to maize. Alternatively, the disambiguation page could use the title Corn stalk, and Cornstalk could redirect to that (or vice versa). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support, too easy to confuse with actual corn stalks. JIP | Talk 01:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• Partial support. The disambiguation page should be at Corn stalk. If someone makes an article on such stems, then we can discuss the primarytopic question. It would be odd to declare primarytopic where we have no article. Dicklyon (talk) 05:01, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support alternative scheme: the disambiguation page at title Corn stalk, and Cornstalk redirects to that. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:11, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• Weak support. It's unlikely that many people are searching for cornstalks as a separate topic from maize, but as a suggested topic when one types "corn", or because editors might mistakenly assume that it redirects to maize, it's probably a good idea that "cornstalk" with or without capitalization either redirect to "maize" (with a hatnote) or to a disambiguation page mentioning topics that might be referred to as cornstalks, corn stalks, or Cornstalk (and potentially "corn stock"). Not sure which would be the best target. I note that a fair argument for the current state based on natural disambiguation could be made for "Cornstalk" due to capitalization and lack of spacing, since as I said, it's improbable that people are searching for cornstalks instead of maize. P Aculeius (talk) 14:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support alternate move to Cornstalk (Shawnee leader) (in order to be consistent) and the DAB page to Cornstalk, its previous location. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:09, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support alternate move DAB title as Corn stalk per DL. Direct Corn Stalk, and Cornstalk to DAB page per Shhhnotsoloud but note capitalise Stalk as a redirect as this is case sensitive. The article to Cornstalk (Shawnee chief) or Cornstalk (Shawnee leader) - no particular preference and there is no evidence of what this would be consistent with. The lead of the article calls him a leader so perhaps that is what is meant but there are references to him being a chief in the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

  Looking around a bit, I get the impression there isn't much consistency between titles like Cornstalk (Shawnee chief) (currently 1 that is Shawnee, and various others from other tribes) and like Cornstalk (Shawnee leader) (currently 2 specific people that are Shawnee – Blackfish (Shawnee leader) and John Lewis (Shawnee leader) – both of whom are described as chiefs, and various others from other tribes, and 1 article that discusses two different people who are described as also being Shawnee chiefs). I also see some titles that would be like Cornstalk (Shawnee) (1 currently that is Shawnee, described as a leader but not as a chief, and various others from other tribes), Cornstalk (chief) (27 titles with no tribe mentioned) or Cornstalk (Native American leader) (9 titles with no tribe mentioned). There is one "(chiefess)", although that's not so relevant here. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support alt. move, per most of the above. As for all the generic redirects (with or without space, with or without capital S), send them to the DAB page.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:00, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.