Talk:Vlachs

Kitāb al-Fihrist

Hi @ZZARZY223 I'm wondering why you're taking out the part where I put in that it's about a Turkic people, the text makes it clear that it's about a Turkic people.

The exact quote of the text:

"Remarks about the Turks and Those Related to Them. The Turks, the Bulgars, the Blagha, the Burghaz, the Khazar, the Llan, and the types with small eyes and extreme blondness have no script, except that the Bulgarians and the Tibetans write with Chinese and Manichean, whereas the Khazars write Hebrew. My information about the Turks is what Abu al-Hasan Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ashnas related to me."

The text makes it perfectly clear that this is about the Turkic peoples, and this chapter is about the Turkic peoples in the first place!

CriticKende (talk) 13:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that what you are claiming is not supported by a secondary source, which is needed in this case, as it is part of the rules against original research ZZARZY223 (talk) 17:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

So, if I find an old text that mentions a name for which there are no other records, and therefore no other historians have written about it, then it doesn't matter what the text says, I can decide about it? Because this sounds quite interesting...The original text clearly states that they are Turks, but because someone wrote something completely different 1000+ years later, the original text is now invalid? CriticKende (talk) 22:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Why do we need a 'secondary source' if the original source itself claims this? CriticKende (talk) 18:42, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

remove the fringe "turkik people" theory since the only one who interpreted the text like this is a single hungarian historian... and everyone else knows its about vlachs 46.97.168.128 (talk) 18:52, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi!

Yes, it really wasn’t sufficient that I provided only one source, so now I’ve added the original 1872 major German academic critical edition, which also translates it this way, as well as the latest Arabic edition (I believe it’s from 2019). I think these sources should now be sufficient.

So, it seems that only Bayard translates it as "blagha," likely mistaking the two words.

The text of the new Arabic edition:

الكلام على الترك وما جانسهم فأما الترك والبلغر والبلغار والبرغز والخزر واللان وأجناس الصغار الأعين المفرطي البياض فلا قلم لهم يعرف سوى البلغر والتبت فإنهم يكتبون بالصينية والمنانية والحزر تكتب بالعبرانية والذي تادى إلى من أمر الترك ما حدثني به أبو الحسن محمد بن الحسن بن أشناس قال حدثني حمود حرار التركي المكلي وكان من التوزونية ممن خرج عن بلده على كبر وتنفط أن ملك الترك الأعظم إذا أراد أن يكتب إلى ملك من الأصاغر وزيره وأمر بشق نشابه ونقش الوزير عليها نقوشا يعرفها أفاضل الأتراك تدل على المعاني التي يريدها الملك ويعرفها المرسل إليه وزعم أن النقش اليسير يحتمل المعاني الكثيرة وإنما يفعلون ذلك عند مهادناتهم ومسالماتهم وفي أوقات حروبهم أيضا وذكر أن ذلك النشاب المكتوب عليه يحتفظون به ويفون من أجله والله أعلم

This is the text of the new Arabic edition in English translation:

"On the Turks and Their Related Peoples

As for the Turks, the Bulghar, the Bulgar, the Burghuz, the Khazars, the Alans, and other groups with small eyes and exceedingly pale complexions, none of them are known to have a script, except for the Bulghar and the Tibetans, who write in Chinese and Manichaean scripts. The Khazars write in Hebrew. What has reached me about the affairs of the Turks is what Abu al-Hasan Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Ashnas narrated to me. He said that Hamoud Harrar al-Turki al-Makli, who was among the Tawzuniyya and had left his homeland as an elderly man covered in blisters, told him the following: When the great king of the Turks wants to write to one of the lesser kings, he instructs his vizier to split an arrow and engrave symbols upon it. These symbols are known to the elite among the Turks and convey the meanings the king intends, which are also understood by the recipient. He claimed that these minimal engravings could convey a great variety of meanings. They use this method during treaties, peacemaking, and even during times of war. He also mentioned that these inscribed arrows are carefully preserved and that great trust is placed in their significance. And God knows best."

Honestly, the title of the chapter is already "On the Turks and Their Related Peoples", so it was suspicious from the start that it couldn't possibly be about the Vlachs. You're right, it's better that I provided multiple sources, and this way the "fringe" Bayard translation has been clarified. CriticKende (talk) 21:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)