Talk:Jordan Grand Prix

Tobacco sponsorship & slogans

For what it's worth, Jordan ran (in venues banning tobacco sponsorship) in humorous Buzzin' Hornets livery. And Jordan sent his people to the Fireball Roberts School of Interviewing; when asked why his drivers didn't like the new car, the answer was, "It's slow." Too bad it didn't help them survive. RIP Jordan F1. Trekphiler 00:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

There was also Bitten & Hisses and Bitten Heroes at various stages. Jordan died the day EJ sold the team, to be honest, the last season as 'Jordan' was a charade...

I missed those. I am sad to see EJ gone, but it's mixed feelings; Schnaider claims Canadian citizenship, & it's the first since Walter Wolfe. We've put a couple of drivers at the top in F1 & Champ cars; I'd love to see a Canadian-owned team there. Trekphiler 04:34, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Dept of Corrections

Asked why drivers didn't like the new car, it was Patrick Head (of Williams...) who replied, "Not quick enough." So much for my memory... Trekphiler 06:29, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Cars, esp. 191

I see it's intended to do an article on each car used by Jordan over the years - great. I'd like to see an image of their gorgeous first car, the 191, included in the main article, though. Anyone know of a public domain image of it about? Bastun 11:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Notable drivers

Surely Michael Schumacher should be included as a notable driver! Myredroom 21:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Jordan a British or an Irish team

Several F1 seasons' pages include Jordan as an Irish team. I would say they were British, though. The were based at Silverstone, which is very much UK, but I'm not sure whether they also raced on a British licence. And perhaps, like Benetton, they changed from Irish to British or back at a certain point in time. Lustigson 25 July 2007 15.15 CET

Although based at Silverstone, the team raced under an Irish licence for the duration of its existence. Jordan writes about it in his autobiography. Regards, Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 13:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Definately used an Irish race licence at all times - the Irish flag was used on podium celebrations, and the Irish national anthem was used at two of them - no anthem was played for the constructor at Spa '98 as they didn't have a copy, apparently. --Kiand 15:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

But, notice this British flag at this picture: http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/690 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.80.191.190 (talk) 10:08, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Red Bull is also based in the UK but it is an Austria team. Check out the flag beside Mercedes (Brawn) this year, it German. Jordan was registered as Irish. Bjmullan (talk) 10:31, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

But for example Toyota. Notice this picture: http://www.autosport.com/gallery/photo.php/id/105396 This picture is from the same French Grand Prix. Toyota had japanese license and was based in Germany. Jordan had irish license and was based in the UK. So why at this photo is japanese flag for Toyota team and at previous photo is British flag for Jordan team ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.80.191.190 (talk) 11:00, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

And for Red Bull, see: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_gallery_image_display.php?fes_gal_id=620&fes_image_number=26&fes_reverse_order=

Picture from French Grand Prix. Red Bull garage with Austrian flag. Based in the UK, the same as Jordan. And Jordan had British flag at its garage. Why ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.80.191.190 (talk) 11:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

WP does not establish the nationality of a sporting team or person by looking at pictures of garages rather they reference the licensing authority to determine it, in this case the FIA. Why don't you got and update all of the entries for the current F1 season and see how you get on. I see Lotus is down as Malaysian, and Force India (the old Jordan team) is now Indian but they are both based in the UK. Bjmullan (talk) 11:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I offer evidence. Photo pictures from French Grand Prix. All photos you can see. Offer any evidence for your claim. You only claim something but lack of evidence. From where do you know that Jordan team had Irish license ? Send some sources for your claims —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.80.191.190 (talk) 11:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Have you tried looking here on WP for the evidence? What about 1991 Formula One season, 1992 Formula One season...2005 Formula One season Bjmullan (talk) 12:07, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

And what about some non-WP sources for your claims ? Like I did. WP is made by people like you and me and therefore not each information on WP is always true. If Jordan was Irish team, why was British flag at official place during French Grand Prix ? Why was not there Irish flag, when Toyota had there Japanese flag, Red Bull Austrian flag, Honda Japanese flag, Renault French flag. And like Jordan, all these teams are based in the other country as country of their registration. See carefully photogallery of French Grand Prix at this webpages: http://www.autosport.com/gallery/ http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_galleries.php I offer authentic sources and evidences for my claims, not only WP sources. On photos from French Grand Prix you can notice: british flag for Jordan, Williams, McLaren. French flag for Renault. Italian flag for Ferrari and Toro Rosso. Japanese flag for Honda and Toyota ( although they are not based in Japan ). Austrian flag for Red Bull.

I very much doubt the teams themselves put up those flags ouside their pit garages. Much more likely to have been the race organiser. And they were not infallible. See above - no anthem was played for the constructor at Spa '98 as they (the event promoter) didn't have a copy. We do, however, have a source for the Jordan team being Irish, as also mentioned above - namely Eddie Jordan himself, writing in his autobiography. That's rather more authoritative than a photo taken at one race. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok people, this is precisely why the team used to be listed as contentious. As far as flags outside garages go, they would have been sourced from the official FIA entry list and erected according to that schedule, so I tend to believe that they offer some evidence. Are you seriously suggesting that EJ would have left the Union Jack above his pit garage all weekend if it were wrong? Not playing a national anthem or playing the wrong one are a completely different story, as they are sudden events that you can't really alter. On the other hand, and sticking to national anthems, the Irish national anthem was indeed played for Frentzen's wins in 1999. This suggests that, in 1999 at least, Jordan were registered as Irish. So what had happened by 2001? Flipping nationality from year to year isn't far-fetched, as at the time there were special rules introduced allowing extra testing at a track in a team's "home" country (to appease sponsors and so on). But, how many F1-grade tracks are there in Eire? And why would a team based, literally, over the road from one of the best F1 tracks available at the time spend money traveling? Eddie, although proudly Irish, is also a canny businessman, and being honest Jordan didn't really trade on the Irishness beyond the first few years. I can see it being perfectly possible that Jordan was registered as both Irish and British at various points in its existence. There certainly seems to be evidence for both. I don't have EJ's autobiography to hand, and while if he does say what you claim he says that provides a powerful line of evidence, there is certainly enough inconsistency in other sources to question it. EJ never was one to let the truth get in the way of a good story. Go away, find more evidence, then come back. Pyrope 17:45, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Watch 1999 French Grand Prix Part 6 at youtube webpage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTmF-7Ej3Iw&feature=related In 4:00 min. you can see British flag at Jordan garage. But at the same race Irish anthem is played after race as you can hear at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sI4UcVok38&feature=related I think that Jordan was british team and Irish anthem played on the podium after race was only a mistake like it happened at 2009 Chinese Grand Prix where British anthem was played for austrian Red Bull team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.102.31.100 (talk) 19:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

It's equally easy to believe that the French GP organisers made a mistake when they put up those signs and could not repaint the sign that quickly. One banner above a garage is not credible evidence to change the nationality of the team, we need something more concrete and not debatable. The³5₉ (Talk) 08:46, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Do you believe that French GP organisers made the same mistake repeatedly during each season ? Photo above is from 2001 French Grand Prix, video is from 1999 French Grand Prix. The wrong anthem is more probable because it is an event which can not be corrected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.102.31.100 (talk) 09:05, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

* http://www.statsf1.com/en/jordan.aspx

* http://www.statsf1.com/en/irlande/constructeur.aspx

These citations work for me, if you really insist I'll try to dig out Eddie Jordan's autobiography. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 16:20, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

But on the other side, this citation http://www.grandprixstats.com/en/makes/details.php?d=71 works for me. It would be the best if you really send EJ autobiography. I think that wrong anthem is more probable than wrong flag at pitgarage, therefore I consider Jordan as British team. It is impossible that British flag would have been above Jordan garage during whole race weekend since thursday to sunday during each season ( photos from 1999 and 2001 French Grand Prix are pictured here as proof ) if Jordan was not british team. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.102.31.100 (talk) 16:38, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Assumptions on what the French organisers did or did not do is irrelevant, the point is that a banner above a pit garage is not a reliable reference. The³5₉ (Talk) 19:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

and Bruce Jones in his book "The ultimate encyclopedia of Formula One" also mentioned Jordan as British team. See: http://books.google.cz/books?id=Q19CG7Zn86oC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=Jordan++Great+Britain+++Bruce+Jones++book&source=bl&ots=rQFp9hb8a2&sig=7XuSUlx2FHDrW1kf9eyiO-UxJtQ&hl=sk&ei=oj10S-fVNcyC_QbDwsG-Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.102.31.100 (talk) 17:36, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

None of the evidence provided so far is conclusive; all are secondary, they contradict each other and all could be the result of mistakes. As soon as we try to judge which mistake is more likely, we're into the realms of original research. We need access to the official FIA entry lists, or an authoritative source. Does FORIX cover this stuff, and does anyone have access? 4u1e (talk) 19:34, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

(Also posted at WT:F1) From the horse's mouth:

When I got to the podium, someone said they did not have the Irish national anthem – which was a major cock-up on the part of Formula One Management because Jordan was an Irish-registered team. Our first win was to be marked with the wrong national anthem. This was outrageous.

— Eddie Jordan, The day EJ beat them all

That's not some field in a form that could be mistakenly entered, that's a quote from the team owner that specifically states the exact words we are looking for: "Jordan was an Irish-registered team". The original article has been taken off ITV-F1.com, but there is an archive version here, which is textually identical to the original. AlexJ (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Which is pretty much what I remember he says in the autobiography, too. Will look for it when I have some time, probably at the weekend. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:35, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The header describes it as an extract from his book so it's probably identical. However, I don't see any harm in using the web version - as far as I can tell from guidelines, the use of Wayback Machine archive versions of webpages to overcome linkrot is permitted. Additionally, ITV-F1.com is considered a reliable source, and also the text is viewable by anyone with an internet connection, whilst the book may not be. AlexJ (talk) 23:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Definitely, Jordan was registered as an Irish team. Jordan achieved 4 wins: 1998 Belgian GP, 1999 French GP, 1999 Italian GP and 2003 Brazilian GP. 1998 Belgian GP: no athem for winning constructor was played because organisers had no copy of Irish anthem. See Eddie Jordan autobiography quoted above. 1999 French GP: Irish national anthem was played as you can hear. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sI4UcVok38&feature=related 1999 Italian GP: Irish national anthem was played as you can hear. http://video.aol.com/video-detail/f1-1999-italian-gp-podium-and-press-conference/36028864135400429 2003 Brazilian GP: originally Kimi Raikkonen was declared as a winner, therefore no anthem for Jordan was played on the podium —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.102.31.100 (talk) 09:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Plus, I wouldn't put too much credibility in the French organisers... watching Ireland vs France in rugby at the weekend, and the graphics (Irish commentary from a French TV feed) kept showing the Irish tricolour. Which is the flag of Ireland, the state, but not the flag of the Irish rugby team, which is an all-island team. Considering that France has been in the Six Nations since 1946, you'd think they'd have known that by now... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

And referring to 2003 Brazilian GP, Irish anthem was eventually played for Jordan team. This ceremony took place at Imola in two weeks later before start of San Marino GP and playing of Irish anthem is proved by these web pages: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2003/4/244.html and http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=120294&FS=F1

Nationality of Jordan team is resolved. But nationality of Eagle, Shadow, Penske and Wolf team still remains controversial —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.102.31.100 (talk) 16:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Notable drivers

Recent edits sort of confirm my suspicion that 'noted drivers' is an impossible category, because everyone's definition of noted is different and what seems obviously right to one is equally obviously poppycock to others. Just as a thinking exercise, here are the list as of right now, with reasons for notability:

• Michael Schumacher - only drove one race for Jordan, but it was his debut and he went on to become (by most definitions) the most successful driver of all time in F1.
• Damon Hill - won Jordan's first race, and is a former world champion
• Rubens Barrichello - drove for Jordan for four years and took the team's first pole position.
• Eddie Irvine - drove for the team for two years.
• Heinz-Harald Frentzen - won two races for Jordan (the most won by any Jordan driver) and with two three races to go was a potential, if slightly unlikely, contender for the 1999 drivers' championship
• Giancarlo Fisichella - won one race for the team, his first and the team's last.

I'm struggling a bit with Irvine - he didn't drive for the team for a particularly long time, didn't win any races, but did achieve some podiums (as did Ralf Schumacher). I suppose if Irvine goes in, so should Ralf, but I can't really see that either of them are particularly notable. I'm not that convinced by Rubens either. I'm not going to get into an edit war over this - just interested to see what others think and why. Cheers. 4u1e 11:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

All of the above should be included, in my opinion. Irvine gets talked about a lot when Jordan are discussed, and (in my opinion at least) his F1 debut merits the inclusion in and of itself - Eddie_Irvine#Jordan_.281993-1995.29. Regards, Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 14:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Are we sure that's not just from a UK/Irish point of view? By his debut, do you mean the Senna incident? What do people say about Irvine in connection with Jordan? Ralf Schumacher also made his debut for Jordan, and has been arguably more successful than Irvine - should he too be included? Glad to hear your views. 4u1e (talk) 22:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Scoring a point (under the old system) on a F1 debut is notable in and of itself; and unlapping himself from Senna and the subsequent 'altercation' only add to it. I'm fully prepared to admit that may be an Irish bias, though :P Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 22:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with a bit of pride in your country! Hmmm, I hadn't taken that debut race into account - ah well let's stick him and Ralf in and see how it goes. I see Ralf got a podium in only his third race, which is pretty notable too. (No, I'm not German!). 4u1e (talk) 08:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The explanations make Tiago Monteiro and Narain Karthikeyan more notable than the Schumacher brothers, Irvine and Barrichello, for these two took part and won points for Jordan in the infamous US GP of 2005. Monteiro made a podium finish and Karthikeyan came fourth. Additionally, Monteiro represented the team in the following year. Karthikeyan was the first Indian to drive on F1. I am including their names too to the list. -- Sreejith Kumar (talk) 14:22, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Zsolt Baumgartner was the first Hungarian driver in F1 when he made his debut for Jordan. Andrea de Cesaris competed for Jordan in the infamous 1994 San Marino Grand Prix. I'm not sure these things, while perhaps notable in themselves, really make drivers notable for a specific team, in this case Jordan. Surely we should focus on the team, in which case Barrichello's two podiums and one pole position, and Schumacher R's three podiums, all scored in real races, are rather more notable than Monteiro's lucky podium in a comedy race with only six cars or Karthikeyan's fourth place in the same race. I'd happily remove Irvine from the list in exchange. 4u1e (talk) 17:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Point is proven with the removal of Irvine, R Schumacher et al from the list. Thanks for it. The explanation given for M Schumacher also does not make enough reason for retaining his name as one notable driver for Jordan. The 1991 debut was important for Michael, but that does not make him a notable driver for the team. Please remove his name too. His name would have been valid had he won a race for them, following your own lines. Michael is indeed a great driver, but Jordan is nowhere in the picture to make his personal and professional achievements 'notable'. The comedy race podium finish of Monteiro is more meaningful. -- Sreejith Kumar (talk) 17:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I wish to reiterate: M Schumacher is indeed one of the best ever Formula One drivers. But that does not make him a noted driver for Jordan. Making his debut for Jordan is not good enough reason to have his name on the list. To be very clear, M Schumacher was not a notable driver for Jordan at all. In this page, we are mentioning the names of notable Jordan drivers only. Other info can be given in M Schumacher's page. Thanks. -- Sreejith Kumar (talk) 21:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

'Notable' can also mean 'famous'. Schumacher (famously) made his debut for Jordan, and if you were to show the list we currently have to anyone entirely unfamiliar with F1, they would most likely still recognise Schumacher's name. I'd ask, before you change again, to achieve some consensus here first. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 20:23, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Let me put it again: How a formula one driver becomes notable, and how he becomes notable for a team are different. Schumacher achieved his feats running for Ferrari. Making his debut for Jordan is not enough reason for counting him as a notable driver for Jordan. There are many other drivers who have made their debuts for Jordan. In that respect, even Tiago Monteiro's podium finish becomes more notable than Schumi's debut for them. A driver becomes notable for a constructor, when he scores, and not by making debut for them and achieving his feats for another. -- Sreejith Kumar (talk) 05:40, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Schambo on this. Schumacher's first drive for Jordan is not just notable because of what he later went on to achieve, it was a notable event that year anyway. As we all no doubt know, Schumacher's qualifying performance made headline news in the specialist press, and his subsequent poaching by Benetton has been well documented - for example it takes up the first chapter or so of the book The Piranha Club, which also takes its title from the incident. 4u1e (talk) 20:40, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Jordan EJ14

The article Jordan EJ14 has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

A search for references found only a single published (gBooks) reference to this vehicle, fails WP:V and WP:N

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 16:16, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Refs have been added and prod has been removed (not by me). DH85868993 (talk) 22:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Noted Drivers

Shoulnt Narain Karthikeyan be added to the noted drivers list as he was the first ever Indian Formula One driver so he has the right to be a notable driver. Me12356 (talk) 12:01, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Notable in the history of Jordan? I don't think so. Him being the first Indian falls in the category of trivia related to his career, not notability. Pyrope 13:27, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes but it also should run under the teams trivia as the team gave his first ever F1 drive. His Performance in 2005 for Jordan was great considering the car he was given for example the 2005 chinese GP his Qualifying performance was great. Me12356 (talk) 14:47, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

All opinion, not fact. It still doesn't make him notable. Pyrope 13:56, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I found it incredibly odd that Trulli was missing from the list, while Irvine, de Cesaris, et al were included! Didn't make any sense to me. Even Alesi, who drove just 6 (?) races for Jordan, is included in the "noted" drivers list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.204.48.169 (talk) 11:14, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

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