Talk:Rioplatense Spanish

A small change

I added that Irish were poorer (not always but most of the times), while English immigrants came from the upper classes. And I changed not great for not as great as the Italian because more than half a million irish descendents are indeed a considerable number in a country of 35 million people.

Dialects

THERE ARE NO SPANISH DIALECTS EXEPT LUNFARDO. American English is not a dialect and British English is not a dialect, nor is Australian.

That one who wrote the article is a beast that Doesn't know a word about Spanish.

The author is probably going to pop up soon to answer that, but in the meantime, I'm one of the main contributors, and all I can say is:

1. Please be polite;
2. Try to understand what dialect means;
3. Soy argentino, hablo en dialecto rioplatense, y no soy una bestia;
4. Please sign your messages.

--Pablo D. Flores 00:58, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

BTW I wouldn't say that lunfardo qualifies as a dialect. Ejrrjs | What? 01:26, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeísmo, s-aspiration, etc.

"That is, in Rioplatense, se cayó "he fell down" is homophonous with se calló "he became silent"." Even if this is true, this homophony is too common in spoken spanish to be considered privative of Rioplatense Spanish. The words "calló" and "cayó" are also homophonous and frecuently pronounced "caió" in most spanish speaking countries, and the distinction beetween ll and y is more the exception (e.g. Paraguay) than the rule. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.96.66.41 (talk) 17:33, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

The sound sample found in voiced palatal approximant does not correspond with Río de la Plata yeism. Could someone more knowledgable verify it? Ejrrjs | What? 18:28, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

No wonder, since Rioplatense doesn't realize it as a palatal, but as a postalveolar (there's an interesting discussion about that in Talk:Yeísmo). --Pablo D. Flores 11:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

PD Oh my, I wrote that myself. I'm rewriting the whole thing now.

Well, I guess it's ok now. The only thing bodering me is that the aspirated s between vowels is not exactly a voiceless glottal fricative, since it's a sound made far ahead, right behind the teeth, that seams not to bee among the IPA ones. Never mind, close enough.

By the way, the between-words aspiration of s ("te vua deja lo/h/ojo asi") is actually not Rioplatense at all. It's used in the south of Argentina (which are also said to speak Rioplatense spanish, as the use yeísmo), and in other provinces such as Cordoba, Catamarca, Salta, etc. as a matter of fact, I believe it's used all over argentina exept perhaps for the Chaco-Litoral Provinces (Misiones, Entre Rios, Corrientes, Chaco, Formosa). --Marianocecowski 14:03, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The aspirated s between vowels only appears in the cases you mention ("te vua dejá lo/h/ojo/h/así"), and then only in some people's idiolects. It does in mine (I'm from Rosario), though I don't threaten people like that :-). To me, "las águilas azules" is all aspirated, "lah águilah azuleh". It's clearly [h], no front-of-the-mouth component at all, so you must be thinking about some other type of s.

--Pablo D. Flores 14:40, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, yes, I was thinking about Rio Negro and Neuquen. It's very interesting, though, to try to teach a foreigner to pronounce some of these phrases. Not to say Funny! --Marianocecowski 15:27, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

That would be so confusingly funny. I've never actually heard the southern dialects, so I can't tell for sure. Where are you from? What we should have is a page on cordobés (see Córdoba Province, Argentina -- which BTW is sorrowfully and inexplicably a substub). Try to explain that intonation pattern. I think I'll try. Later. --Pablo D. Flores 02:46, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

MMmm, I don't think it's actually so interesting if S is aspirated between words or not, and you can not associate it to a geografical region either. Besides, current emigration of Porteños to the South prevents it from being a rule. Where am I from? Well, hard to answer, but my oldman lives in Rio Negro. --Marianocecowski 08:56, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Aspiration of -s even when the following word begins with a vowel is found throughout the Spanish-speaking Americas, and is especially complete in and around the Caribbean. I didn't know it was also in Argentina. But anyways, I wanted to ask, do people down there also say "nojótroj"? Tomer ^TALK 17:33, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

No -- the medial s is not aspirated in this case: it's [no'sotrɔh]. The medial s-aspiration happens when the s ends a word, usually when you say las or los and then a noun that begins with a vowel. --Pablo D. Flores 18:20, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I was a bit ambiguous in my question. I was not implying that the medial -s- is always aspirated, nor asking if it were, but rather, specifically in "nosotros". There's some other word I can't think of at the moment (I haven't spoken espanglés in so long...:-( ) where this also occurs, but it's at the end of the apparent lemma "nos", the fact that it appears medially in the spelling notwithstanding. Tomer ^TALK 04:28, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

I get it (I suspected it too). In fact, since "nos + otros" is quite recognizable as two morphemes, it might be tempting for some to aspirate the medial s, but no. As far as I can remember, s is aspirated only when it is the plural marker and/or at the end of a clearly recognized full word (there are not many words that end in -s in the singular, but eucaliptus comes to mind -- eucaliptus altos is aspirated in both instances in my idiolect). --Pablo D. Flores 15:51, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

'k Just checking. I recall hearing "nohótroh" frequently as a wee tyke (enough so that that's how I grew up saying it)...this is for PR tho, not for conosur. :-) Tomer ^TALK 20:12, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Where exactly is the s in the word ucalito?  :-) elpincha 07:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

hehehe. at the end! :-p Tomer^talk 07:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, can someone explain this to me? I have never heard, at least amongst well-educated people, the omision of the S-sound. I know that the aspiration of S happens quite often as in the word "mismo" which is generally pronunced something like [mih'mo] but the omission of the S-sound is something I generally don't hear. I've heard the homeless and the shantytown people talk like that (villeros) and tumberos speaking like that especially when they use the negative 2nd person verb voice. Instead of no vengas/vengás, no vengá. Does the omision of the S-sound really happen as often as the article states? Thanks for your help

Lo

As you sid(Lo)Usuario:AleG

Mahomenoh. You've never met (educated or not) rosarinoh. User:Ejrrjs says What? 20:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• I consider myself as a typical PORTEÑO and I NEVER omit the 's', and neither do most of the people who's usually around me (I'm a typical middle-class). No offense, but, does this fit as a Rioplantese characteristic? I suppose it doesn't. It might be typical of the city of Rosario or less-educated people in Greater Bs. As., but it isn't the REAL average... at all. I would like someone to fix that... thanks. :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.139.179.253 (talk) 19:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

• • My wife is a well-educated middle-class Porteña, and not only she wasn't aware of the fact that she dropped the 's' all the time, but also she denied it. It was only after I played back her recorded voice for her that she realized to what a high extent she used the silent S. Maybe you should record you voice and listen to it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.101.117.77 (talk) 01:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Italian Intonation

Regarding the statement that "Residents of Spain tend to note such Italian intonation more easily than people from nearby regions", I would have thought that Rioplatense's Italian intonation would be quite evident for all Spanish-speakers; it is to me, and I'm Mexican. I don't know, but in my opinion the quoted statement adds little value to the article.--Agurza 22:31, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Mine too. It would be better to have some serious study on intonation patterns in Rioplatense, if such a thing has been done at all. The statement about intonation looks rather subjective and dubious prima facie, and it's also false (for a Mexican speaker at least). Myself, I'd never thought of my dialect as having an "Italian intonation"; I don't really know what that is (any Italians around?). --Pablo D. Flores 01:45, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

I've been mistaken for an Italian in SF, NY and Marbella. Does it count? Ejrrjs | What? 07:57, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Couldn't help it and commented the whole section out. I'd like to have an informal vote from the other editors on whether this section should be excised. However, there's something to say about the general feeling of the Rioplatense accent, so non-RP-speakers, please say something. I'm under the impression that other Spanish speakers hear RP as more fluid than other dialects; that must be because of the s-aspiration/elision, the very idiosyncratic loss of final r in verb infinitives, and other elisions, which give a consonant-vowel CVCVCV... soft rhythm or je ne sais quoi to the dialect. I find Mexican Spanish sounds much more consonantic and stress-timed, and Castilian a bit rough, probably due to the conspicuous dental fricative and the guttural quality of /x/ (which stays velar [x] before front vowels, or even uvular, where RP and others have a palatal allophone [ç]). What say you? --Pablo D. Flores 02:37, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

English is my every-day language (I live in Canada), but Italian is my mother tongue and I am fluent and current (standard and dialect). I have studied some Spanish and have travelled in much of the Spanish-speaking world (Spain, Mexico and parts of South America). Since I am not fluent in Spanish, I always found it easier to converse with locals in my mixed Italian-Spanish (slowly, of course). Even in remote parts of the Yucatán, this worked well. Several years ago, I paid a visit to Chile and Argentina. When I crossed the border on my travels towards Mendoza, I found my "Italian-Spanish" seemed to be coming out of everyone's mouths. I am exagerating my sentiment, of course, but the point I wish to make is that the sounds seemed very familiar to me. I cannot explain this in linguistic terms, but the Spanish suddenly sounded very "Italian". 207.6.233.239 22:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I was once talking to two Spanish girls (ok, it was in a disco and it was loud) and they though I was an Italian who learned Spanish (yes, I know, they had an ice-cream on their forehead...) Mariano(t/c) 08:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

i AM ITALIAN. I SPEAK A GOOD SPANISH. bUT WHEN I AM IN SPAIN, AND WHEN I HAVE BEEN IN MEXICO CITY, THEY HAVE ASK ME IF I WAS FROM ARGENTINA..

I'm colombian, from Barranquilla,with italian parents, and i knew many argentians in Miami, and I can tell u that their sound is like one italian is trying to speack spanish.Their language sound 100% italian.Also as they move face and hands ( gesticulation)is very italian, that is nothing latino.Of course they cannot notice that because for argentians to speak and gesticulate as one italian is the normal way life..But every spanish or latino, that is not fron Argentina notice their strong italian intonation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.49.160.162 (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Gurí

I believe the Guaraní word gurí to be an important lunfardo word, found in a lot of tangos, and a clear example of native influece.

• gurí (Guaraní for "kid")

Link:Lunfardo G --Mariano 14:14, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

Hmmm well, if it is lunfardo, it should be in the Lunfardo article. It is not Rioplatense Spanish, to be sure. In Buenos Aires and Rosario everyone says pibe or chico (except, of course, people who just live there but moved from northern Santa Fe or Entre Ríos). I'm not sure about Montevideo, but probably at least 15 million Rioplatense speakers do not use gurí. It should nevertheless be listed somewhere, along with "tomate", "chocolate", "pampa", "colcha", "cancha", "cóndor", etc. --Pablo D. Flores 14:33, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Corrientes and Entre Ríos, yes. B.A., Montevideo, no. I've heard my Uruguayan friends saying chiquilín for the same purpose. Ejrrjs | What? 07:55, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Over here: chiquito, pibito, and of course also nene and nenito.

Uruguayan Spanish has strong regional variations in this regard. Close to the Entre Ríos border botija, gurí, nene, pibe and chico are all common (can't comment on sociolectal variation). I've heard gurí used in Montevideo, although only in the lower classes. Taragui 10:49, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

This word isn't pretty common nowadays I heard older people saying it though. As a young Uruguayan let me tell you, if you come to Uruguay and you say "guri" people will give you funny looks. 11:40, September 2, 2006 (-3 UTC)

Also, didn't I remove cóndor before? I mean, it's a Native American influence on Spanish, but not specifically in Rioplatense Spanish, since quite obviously there are no condors in the River Plate basin. (Except in zoos, poor things.) --Pablo D. Flores 02:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I started the article and joted some words without even thinking. The purpouse was to have that on the article, not paying much attention. If you read the wikipedias starting a new article guide, it says that you shouldn't focus on everything, that it'll eventually get fixed, corrected, wikified, etc. So I was hoping for the whole article to get fixed/expanded as apropriate. Feel free to do so, I won't get mad. Quite the contrary. SpiceMan 08:48, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm Uruguayan and the word gurí is widely used here. Mostly outside Montevideo, but in Montevideo is also used. Actually, I'm a 26 year old boy borned in Montevideo, and I and my friends still use gurí. About the comment "probably at least 15 million Rioplatense speakers do not use gurí", please don't be disrespectful, even though we have just 3 million inhabitants, Uruguay is an independent country. It's obvious that manners only common in Uruguay won't represent most Rioplatense speakers, but I think they should be taken into account.Pablo FG (talk) 03:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Perdistes?

Regarding the issue of the final -s in the preterite... What do you call it? Is it a remnant of the Spanish vosotros form, formed in the same way as other forms? Or is it hypercorrection? I'd like to know what (sub)dialects feature it. I have the impression that it's much more common, say, in Buenos Aires than it is in Rosario (where it sounds distinctively affected). --Pablo D. Flores 15:14, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you. "Agarrenlón" or "Agarrelón" is just another example of something that has nothing to do with vosotros. I believe this is just another cultural variation. -Mariano 15:29, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I always thought that constructions like perdistes were wrong. It is common in Buenos Aires, but in the higher classes, don't know why (maybe it's their way to add some popular flavour to their talk... if that is the case, is rather dull)--Jfa 15:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

"perdistes is only used by unlearned and ignorant pepople so you can't talk about that as if it was a common way of talking. As there are no spanish dialects i'll replace it, if no one complaints - Argentino 21:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Ways of Spanish?

Is this a technical term? I'm but an amateur of linguistics, but I'm afaid it is not.

Ejrrjs | What? 10:13, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Surely not. If you don't want to use Dialect, it could be Localism, Variation, or perhaps even Version. Mariano(t/c) 07:17, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I wrote "ways". Im not linguistic, im underage and have no idea ot "technical" terms, but surely the one who worte the article has't even suspected that "rioplatense" couldn't be a dialect. The main argument they had to say it is a dialect is the use of 2 different "persons" (vos; ustedes) but, as I said, they dont even suspect that they are also part of the "correct" "real" "iberian" spanish. Vos is an archaism used to invocate really important people (the Pope, the King/Emperor and God himself) and was more than saying "your royal higness". In Spain is used only in the churches. It is widely used in Argentina and Uruguay because the conquerors wanted to be called in such an honorable way, in fact they talked to each other as they were an army of kings, and all the "natives" learned the "vos" form. In the other hand you have "ustedes", it is the spanish plural for "usted"", a formal pronoun (like german "Sie" or italian "lei"). It is used for the same reason, as there isn't a plural for "vos". Now we have differences of pronunctiation and some words, but it is the same difference that have british, american, australian, maltese et cetera englishes. – Argentino 22:27, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Not trying to sound condescending here, but if you yourself admit you don't know anything about linguistics, maybe you shouldn't go around disqualifying other people's use of words. There's not clear definition of "dialect", but that's the accepted term. FYI people speak all the time about dialects of English (moreover, there's no "American English dialect", but different dialects in different parts of the U.S.). Do a Google search and you'll see how everybody uses the word "dialect". For example, here.

When a few people here and there speak differently from the rest, that might be called a "way" of speaking, but when millions of people native to a well-defined geographical area have a series of features that make their speech clearly different from that of other areas, then that's a dialect. Maybe the word has a wrong feeling to your ears, but that's no argument to remove it.

A personal way of speaking is called an "idiolect". A way of speaking of a small group within a culture is a slang or a jargon. You can call all of those things "variations", but "dialect" is more specific, even though it might be used in other senses as well (for example, some speak of a "Standard English dialect", which is an abstract, ideal dialect, like the "Neutral Latin American Spanish" that English-language TV and films are usually dubbed into).

About your explanation of the use of vos, did you read it in a more or less reputable source of information, or just overheard it? I haven't seen that explanation anywhere, though it would be nice to have it (here and in Voseo) if you can cite a source. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:55, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I learned it in school, but if you find the Real Acadamia Española's e–mail you can ask if it is true or not. -Argentino 16:52, 29 October 2005 (UTC) -- PS: From voseo "This pronoun comes from the Old Spanish form vos, which was the formal expression for the second person of the singular"

"Comes from" is not the same as "means". The vos used in Rioplatense is clearly not the formal second person pronoun of Old Spanish, though it does of course come from it (in the same way as ego "ego, pride" comes from Latin ego "I").

The "go check yourself" attitude doesn't help your credibility. If you want to claim that that's the cause of today's usage of vos, you should find a source and make your case. I learned a lot of untrue things in school, you know. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:46, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

PS - I did check myself after all. Here it says specifically that, when voseo became popular in the colonies, it had already become archaic in Spain as a way to show respect and was being replaced by vuestra merced - usted. Vos first became a mark of social difference (but from upper to lower class, that is, e.g. master to servant), and then also an informal treatment between people of the same social rank. Finally the meaning became so "diluted" that it was replaced by the vuestra merced treatment in Spain. The article also says that the Native American languages did not have formal/informal pairs of pronouns, and that the natives probably didn't notice the difference of usage. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 22:03, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Calm down. Argentino 00:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Yesterday i hadn't so much time, you see. I used the same arguments a 292–years–old istitution (RAE) with hundreds of linguistics working for it and 21 linguistics academys (for many iberoamerican states + philippines and USA) associated to it, used for the last 100 years to determinate that there are no spanish dialects exept lunfardo. I know. I have no sources. I cannot scan the RAE's dictionary in the part that says it because it is a huge book impossible to scan, and it is illegal; so we are in the same condition we were when we started, you can just "trust me" but if i were you i wouldnt trust anyone i've never met. – Argentino 10:30, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

If the RAE says Lunfardo is a dialect and the rest are not, then I'll be perfectly OK with mentioning that in the article, even though it contradicts the common definition of dialect and the very definition of dialecto in the DRAE, the definition of dialect in a well-known linguistics website, and even though dialecto is used everywhere in this sense in dictionary definitions and in online papers including the ones in the RAE website. It's not a matter of trust; when/if you have time, you can copy and cite a part of the text in the DRAE that says what you said above. It's not copyright infringement to cite a short text with attribution. Even in that case, of course, I think Rioplatense is a dialect and Lunfardo is not, and I know this is the majority opinion (just search around). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

It says more or less the same i said before but it is 3 pages long including examples. im studyng right now. Argentino 17:45, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Nicaragua and Costa Rica?

I've reverted (twice) the additions by 201.151.69.13 (talk · contribs) claiming that Rioplatense is spoken in Nicaragua and Costa Rica. The second time, this user added some arguments about immigration and relationship between the countries that seem rather inconsequential, at the very least. I've left a note on the user's talk page. If you're reading this, please raise the issue here; do not edit the article directly to reflect your personal view of the matter. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 21:56, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Don't think so. Been there, no Rioplatense Spanish. Only some limited voseo, specially in Costa Rica and Guatemala. Mariano(t/c) 09:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

LL sound

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the phonetics terms but it seems like the article implies the exact opposite of what it should when it comes to the LL sound which, from my limited experience with speakers of the argentinian dialect, its most pronounced feature. The "normal" (castillian?) pronounciation of the word calle in english is pronounced as 'cai-yay' but in argentinian it is 'cai-jay.' (perhaps a little softer then english jay, more like the j sound in french 'jean') The article seems to make a big deal of giving the opposite message. Someone please correct me if i'm wrong here. --Cptbuck 07:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The article says two things: one, that Rioplatense has yeísmo: "ll" and "y" are pronounced the same. This is very common; probably most dialects of modern Spanish have it. But each dialect has a different pronunciation for this "ll/y". In most cases it's a palatal sound, like "ll" and "y" are historically supposed to be; but in Rioplatense (this is the second thing) it is postalveolar, either voiced (French jour) or voiceless (English sure) but not so markedly fricative. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 12:59, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The French j was usually used by Barrio Norte ladies, and the sh sound by hairdressers and dance teachers. Most people used something like the Turkish c (slightly softer than the j in jam or the g in giant). But I'd say there is a slide towards the sh sound, at least in Buenos Aires... some journalists have written Bayar for "Bashar", etc. elpincha 20:00, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

FWIW I pronounce it like sh. The voiced version sounds definitely affected. I'll see if I can get some published research about that (which I doubt). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 02:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Ja! and sh sounds like a little old lady of the Round Ones. I'd love to see statistics (I'm not denying it is happening) User:Ejrrjs says What? 11:23, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Mind you, this is Rosario, not BA. Some people over here claim they can spot a porteño after two or three words; I can't. ;) It's definitely not the same sh as in English, but I'd say it's voiceless. Voiced zh rings very much affected, upper-classy. María Julia Alsogaray, you know? She did such a strange thing with her ll/y that she almost turned it into a voiced sibilant trill (like the supposedly most difficult sound in the world, ř). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm from in-between...and my wife is always kidding me about dropping the final 's' (mahomenoh) This is the only difference I can spot in the speech of my friends from Rosario User:Ejrrjs says What? 11:47, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Many people (including Alejandro Dolina and yours truly) find the sh sound very ugly. It is also very alien to people from, say, Venezuela or Cuba. No self-respecting tango singer, before the 1980s, would pronounce calle as cashe (and then Guillermito Fernández came along...) Listen to Sosa and Rivero for a standard BsAs pronunciation circa mid-century. elpincha 19:10, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

• In the inner city of Buenos Aires, middle-class, average people under the age of at less 50 y.o. speak using the 'SH' sound. You can listen to it even in the media. The English 'J' sound is becoming quite less-used, at least in our city.

My understanding is that the affricate/fricative difference is allophonic: at the beginning of words it is an affricate, within words (especially between vowels) it is a fricative. See Yeísmo#Pronunciation and Spanish phonology#Consonants. In many dialects, it is [ɟ͡ʝ] vs. [ʝ], in older Rioplatense, it is [d͡ʒ] vs. [ʒ] and in newer Rioplatense it is [t͡ʃ] vs. [ʃ], but I believe the Rioplatense phones are actually palatalised ("soft"), i. e. more like [ʃʲ] (or perhaps even [ɕ]), similar to Russian Shcha; at least that's the way they sound to me, although the perceived "softness" could also be because unlike German (and English) /ʃ/, there is no labialisation (lip-rounding) here. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

dialects vs. languages

The difference between a dialect and a language is usually a political, not a linguistic, one. Someone once said, "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy." In Germany and Italy, regional languages that are completely incomprehensible to people from other regions are called "dialects" because they are all spoken in the same country. "Ladino" or "Judeo-Spanish" is often called a dialect of Spanish, but speakers of modern Spanish understand it as well as they understand the Spanish of someone from another Hispanic country.

The adding of "s" to the tú form of the preterit ("perdistes") is heard from uneducated speakers in all parts of the Spanish-speaking world. It is probably added by analogy with the other verb tenses in Spanish, all of which have an "s" at the end of the tú form: pierdes, perdías, perderás, perderías.

Too much of what has been said here is impressionistic. "To me it sounds like this," and "to me it sounds like that." Studies have been done with oscilloscopes and other gadgets to scientifically compare these sounds. Other statements wreak of patriotism: "Argentinean Spanish flows, while Mexican Spanish is consonantal and stress-timed." Anyone who thinks that Mexican Spanish is stress-timed has not lived surrounded by Mexicans, all rat-tat-tatting away like machine guns. Since I am often in the company of English-speakers and Spanish-speakers (mostly Mexican) at the same time, the difference between the rhythm patterns of the two languages is astounding.

--70.146.2.8 02:58, 27 December 2005 (UTC)Gerald Young

I think some of those things are to be discussed in other pages. As for the personal opinions ("To me it sounds like this") I'm sure there are none in the article, though of course there might be many in this talk page. If you have studies of pronunciation, please show them; I haven't been able to find any. Also, I'd rather avoid the use of the word wreak in this context, but that's just me. ;)

I'm a native speaker of Rioplatense Spanish and have been told many times that my accent is more "fluid" or "loose" than e. g. Mexican Spanish; I hear Mexican Spanish often in the international news and tend to concur. It's not that Mexican Spanish is like English; but the influence is noticeable. It's not also a "fault" or an esthetic "flaw" of Mexican Spanish. In inaccurate but more-or-less approximate terms, Rioplatense drops consonants and Mexican drops vowels.

It looks as if "patriotism" is a bad thing for you here; if so, we agree. In any case you're wrong if you believe that asserting a quality of one's dialect is necessarily a case of misguided patriotism. I don't understand why you come down so harshly on this article. We all know the "dialect with an army" thing, but the existence of Rioplatense (defined in more or less subjective terms) is acknowledged by linguists. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:54, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

BTW, it's "reek", not "wreak". I read the sound /rik/ and not the word, too. See Mexican Spanish (written independently from this article). It says that "a striking feature of Mexican Spanish, in the interior of the country at least, is the high rate of unstressed vowel reduction and elision". --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:17, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

No vale la pena

Yo ya sabía cuando escribí mi mensaje que no valía la pena. Adiós, y que se quede feliz, Sr. Flores, en su ignorancia.--70.146.2.8 20:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)Gerald Young

For the record, since not everyone who reads this talk page also reads Spanish, the above means "I already knew when I wrote my message that it wasn't worth it. Goodbye, and stay happy, Mr. Flores, in your ignorance." It's true that it's not worth it, really... maybe I'm having a bad day or maybe it's the heat over here, but I don't feel like being personally insulted. 70.146.2.8 or Gerald Young or whatever your name is, my ignorance is vast, but that is remedied a bit every time I converse in good terms with any of the knowledgeable people here in Wikipedia or elsewhere who can teach me. The one who leaves willingly in ignorance this time is you. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 20:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Si querés irte, andate. Yo no te voy a parar.

I don't know, but Si te querés ir, andate. Yo no te voy a parar. sounds more natural to me... User:Ejrrjs says What? 23:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel either of them more natural than the other. Feel free to change it, though I'd choose my version because it shows word-medial r-elision. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:09, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

See? there had to be a reason. Regards, User:Ejrrjs says What? 20:41, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Please enlighten me on word-medial r-elision. I'm a native speaker of uptown Lima Spanish with only partial knowledge of the intricacies of Rioplatense Spanish. Thank you. --Rcgy 17:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

R ELISION? That's a characteristic of our spanish? God, this is mad. Average people don't talk like that guy, hah. We usually don't omit any 'r' or 's'.

I just wanted to point out that the audio clip isn't very representative of how you would hear that sentence on the street, even when interacting with someone who has a less privileged educational background. Usually, the final s is either pronounced or aspirated at the very least, and that does not come through in the clip. It sounds much more Chileno than Rioplatense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.18.253.56 (talk) 22:52, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Imperative

There's a fact about Rioplatense Spanish that might worth mention: Some verbs don't have an own imperative mode and actually "borrow" it from other verbs. Here you have some examples (actually maybe all). I write the infinitve of the verb itself, followed by the infinitive of the verb whose imperative is borrowed: Oír (to hear)/ escuchar (to listen); ver (to see)/ mirar (to look at); ir (to go)/ andar (eh...uhm...to move?). For instance, what in Rioplatense Spanish is said si querés irte, andate; in standard Spanish would be si quieres irte, vete (using the very same verb). Also note that mirar and escuchar frequently replace ver and oír in other modes as well. So, does it deserve mention?--Cloviz 17:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Loss of distinction between "oir"/"escuchar" and "ver"/"mirar" is neither privative of Rioplatense Spanish nor restricted to the imperative. It's part of a wider phenomenon of meaning conflation, occurring also in other Spanish-speaking regions. If mentioned at all, it should be mentioned in an article on dialectal and sociolectal variation in Spanish.

The other case you mention ("ir"/"andar") is specifical to voseante dialects, and is probably triggered by the conjunction of a) a very short form for the voseante regular construction of the second person singular imperative (which would be í, a rather improbable form), and b) a very notable irregularity in the standard verb conjugation (ir employs no less than three completely different roots, viz. "i-", "vaya-" and "fu-"), making it a likely candidate for substitution. Notice that the second person plural imperative has the standard form "vayan". Taragüí @ 20:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mean a loss of distinction, I was talking about a complete replacement; which is, as far as I know, exclusive of the second person of the voseo. Is common to hear words like oigan, ví, oyeron, vemos, etc. But not oí or vé, since they are always replaced by escuchá and mirá.--Cloviz 00:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

What about “Che, papusa, oí”? User:Ejrrjs says What? 08:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

or this excerpt from Sabato's Sobre héroes y tumbas:

no perdiendo ocasión de burlarse de su adolescente enamorado, incluso criticándole un disco de tango: oi que letra, yo quiero morir commigo sin confesión y sin Dios, crucificado en mis penas, como abrazado a un rencor

User:Ejrrjs says What? 08:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It is true that in the imperative ver is not used, but oir most definitelly is. Che, oime is a very common phrase to catch someone's attention. For ver, the only used phrase I can remember could be velo con tus propios ojos or so. Perhaps because ver means more than mirar, and you cant just command someone to actually see something, just to look at it and hope they will see it. Mariano(t/c) 08:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright! Perhaps just in Entre Rios we don't say oí. Anyway, I think it's a shame that we have to disregard the regularity of the language; specially in the case of ir.--Cloviz 13:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I may not have come through clearly. By "loss of distinction" I meant "a trend towards replacement of the verbum sentiendi by the verbum agendi". It is far from complete, but it's not difficult to find purist literature complaining about it. Since you're a native speaker, you'll have no problem recalling instances of "hablá más fuerte que no te escucho" (meaning "hear", not "listen"), a case of substitution completely apart from the imperative.

As for it being a shame, well, if you really want a regular language I'd suggest Esperanto. Spanish isn't one and has never been. In any case, non-voseante Spanish has "ve", which is far from a regular form. Taragüí @ 13:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Resorting to a different verb is a rather extreme case of irregularity...But maybe all these little details make a vernacular language beautiful; more beautiful than a planned, perfectly structured one.--Cloviz 13:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Rioplatense clitics as free pronouns?

Word-final Rioplatense clitics receive stress in a manner that is very different from the other Latin American dialects, making them sound as if they were free morphemes -- does anyone know anything about this phenomenon? I just know from having grown up next to Argentinian neighbors and watching Argentinian shows for decades: What in my Lima dialect I would pronounce as cállate /káyate/ is pronounced callá té /kashá/ + /te/ and this stress pattern holds for all suffixed personal pronouns in the infinitive and imperative (i.e. tenseless) conjugations. It'd be interesting to see if there is research out there that shows the dialect's clitics have been transformed into "free" pronouns that simply change place but are not suffixed as they are in the majority of Spanish dialects. I'm gonna look into it but if anyone knows more about this than I do please enlighten me :) --Rcgy 15:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In the example you gave, only the stress is shifted. It's true that sometimes a secondary stress appears over the pronoun (dígame becomes /ˈdigaˌme/ or even /ˌdigaˈme/), but the pronoun is still a clitic; just as in other dialects, you can't move it around or place anything between the verb and the pronoun (it's dígame eso or dígame eso a mí, never *diga eso me). —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Excelent! Thank you very much for your insight; it makes perfect sense and is very helpful. One more question, if I may: Could the stress shift be a warning sign of sorts that Rioplatense clitics are "on their way" to becoming free pronouns? Cf. the velarization of word-final alveolar nasals (/n/ --> /ng/) in many dialects of Spanish as a warning sign of impending absorption into the preceding vowel; French underwent a similar velarization of syllable-final alveolar nasals, the precursors of which can still be heard in some of the southern dialects. I just wonder if maybe one day we'll begin hearing a felicitous ¡Decí rápido me! or ¡Callá por favor te! here and there in Porteño Spanish. --Rcgy 17:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure if I'm correct about this, but I believe that the difference in stress in your example cállate [ˡkɑɪ.jə.te] and callate [kaɪ.ˡʒɑ.te] is due to the fact that these verbs are being conjugated by different subject pronouns. The R.A.E. shows [1] (and we hispanohablantes know from experience) that tú conjugates callar in the imperative mode as calla [ˡkɑɪ.jə] and vos conjugates callar in imperative mode as callá [kaɪ.ˡʒɑ], tag the pronouns on the end, and we have the change in stress accounted for without supposing anything more complex. J Crow 21:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Argentine slang dictionary

I've restored the link to the Argentine slang dictionary (which was deleted here because the link was dead). I'm letting it be known because, as some of the editors of this page know, it is my dictionary (it was on a borrowed domain that somebody forgot to renew). I wasn't the one to link to it in the first place, but I guess it is useful, so I uploaded it again. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 02:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The castellano vs. español thing

The first line of the article says "castellano rioplatense" but omits "español rioplatense". In this case, the more adequate term should be the one used in the regions where Rioplatense is spoken. Many teachers would say "castellano", others "español", others that they are synonyms, and a small minority that the RAE oficially describes the language as "español". But at least here in Montevideo, people would never say "la extranjera que vino ayer no habla castellano" but "la extranjera que vino ayer no habla español". Here, most people knows that word but never uses it. Would someone explain how it is in Colonia, Paysandú, Capital, Gran Buenos Aires, Rosario, Santa Fe or elsewhere? -- NaBUru38 19:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know in Uruguay Español was prefered. In Buenos Aires (and I would say also in Rosario) Castellano is far more common. Perhaps adding the Español Rioplatense as a possible name should be enough. Mariano(t/c) 08:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Tú and vos in Uruguay

- Espero que veas or Espero que veas "I hope you can see" (Peninsular veáis) A diacritic is missing, or else there is no difference beetween both examples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.96.66.41 (talk) 17:43, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Reading this article one gets the impression that Uruguayans use "tú" and "vos" indistinctly or even randomly. This is not so. Actually, Uruguayan Spanish has a ternary second-person pronoun system:

VOS: Informal and intimate. Used between siblings, very close friends, etc.

TÚ: Informal, but not intimate. Used, for instance, by a shopkeeper adressing a customer and not wanting to sound too stiff, by two young people meeting for the first time, etc.

USTED: Formal. Used between an employer and an employee, or between a civil servant and someone from the public, for instance.

Please check this out and find appropriate sources, but if you don't, PLEASE reword the article so as not to convey the idea that VOS and TÚ are interchangeable in Uruguay. --200.43.37.44 18:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Examples of vocabulary are not representative

The several of the examples cited in the chart that compares Rioplatense to Castillian are not representative of Rioplatense in specific, but American Spanish overall. For example, the words durazno, papa, and celular are used in place of the castillian melocotón, patata, and movíl in every South American country I have visited (Peru, Bolivia, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile--and the dialects of Peru Bolivia and Chile are not considered Rioplatense) as well as by Mexican friends of mine (Mexican Spanish is not Rioplatense). Perhaps words need to be chosen that represent the distinct vocabulary of Rioplatense, and these examples could be used in an article which contrasts American Spanish with European Spanish.

Additionally, having lived in Spain for some time, the word used for tie is typically corbata. Joshua Crowgey 20:29, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for noting this. It's really difficult, unless you're both well traveled and have a good memory for these things, to compile a vocabulary of dialectal differences, least of all with the rigorousness needed for an encyclopedia. Maybe we should ask people on other WikiProjects to compare vocabularies with us. :) —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:29, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I looked at that chart again and I noticed some other examples where the word that should exemplify Rioplatense is actually an 'Americanism' used all over South and Central America. Here's that chart again, with my comments.

Selected vocabulary differences

Rioplatense	Castilian	English (US/ UK)
durazno (American)	melocotón (Spanish)	peach
damasco (I'm unfamiliar with this word	albaricoque (unfamiliar)	apricot
frutilla (unfamiliar, perhaps a great example of Rioplatense)	fresa (Spain, Peru, Mexico, Bolivia, Chile)	strawberry
papa (all over America)	patata (Spain)	potato
poroto (Many S.A. and C.A. countries = frijol)	judía (also alubia is a common word for bean in Spain	bean
pulóver (peruvians say polo)	jersey (spanish often say camisa or camiseta if not refereing to a sport's jersey, most spanish say el suéter for a sweater)	sweater / pullover
moño (this is literally the word for 'bow' and is used in S.A. to mean bowtie	pajarita	necktie (these are the words for a bowtie, not a necktie; necktie is corbata)
celular (everywhere in america)	móvil (Spain)	cell phone / mobile
computadora (everywhere in america)	ordenador (spain)	computer
baúl (used in Peru)	maletero (Spain, possibly elsewhere)	(car) trunk / boot
valija (unfamiliar, poss. rioplatense)	maleta (spain, peru)	luggage or suitcase
pollera (unfamiliar)	falda (spain, peru, etc.)	skirt
ricota	requesón	ricotta cheese

Joshua Crowgey 16:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

In Uruguay, a lot of people would say "buzo" instead of "pulóver" (example). -- NaBUru38 15:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I commented the table out of the article until it can be edited by someone familiar with both Rioplatense and general South American Spanish. As explained in the comment above, the majority of the examples in the chart are not particular to Rioplatense Spanish, but are used across South and Central America. Thusly, they are not good examples of vocabulary which is particular to the Rioplatense (the principle topic of the article). We need an expert who is both familiar with Rioplatense, General American, and Castillian Spanishes, or someone who wants to do a lot of research with the Real Academia Espanola to determine the correct usage boundaries of these words before the chart goes back in. J Crow 21:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

As the editor who prepared the list of vocabulary differences, I feel obliged to explain to you that the trend in Spanish lexicography is to write national dictionaries where local usages are contrasted with European Spanish usages. The many existing Argentinian-Spanish dictionaries list all words in which these two varieties differ, even if some (or most) of those words are used in other countries as well. See Diccionario del español de Argentina : español de Argentina-español de España / Günther Haensch, Reinhold Werner ; coordinación Claudio Chuchuy. Madrid: Gredos, 2000.

Your objection (that "papa" is also used in Mexico, for instance) misses the point that a dialect's vocabulary may be unique even if all of its words are used in other dialects, provided that the overall combination of all those words is peculiar to the dialect in study. Thus, "computadora" may be also used in Mexico, and "poroto" may be also used in Chile, but the only dialect in which both "computadora" and "poroto" are used is Rioplatense. (Contrary to a previous assertion of yours, "computadora" is not used in all of Latin America; in Chile they say "computador;" e.g. "Un computador por niñ@" [name of a Chilean national program to provide every child with a computer].)

Similarly, the only dialect in which all the words in my list are used is Rioplatense, and that's why the list can be considered fully representative.--Abenyosef 01:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd be interested in seeing an Italian or Neapolitan column, just to see how close the words are to it as well, given the history of its influence. Any takers? --MartinezMD (talk) 07:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Italian/Neapolitan words, or even cocoliche, made it thought mainly to the local argot lunfardo, which proper to the Rioplatense region, but is not considered part of the Spanish language. Words like laburo, schiaffo, 'guarda!', 'que culo!' and other expresions originated from the Italian language/dialects are not in the RAE dictionary, and therefore not considered 'Rioplatense Spanish' but just Lunfardo. It is true, a lo of words are South American, or at least from the Cono Sur (palta, frutilla, etc). Others, such as Pollera, Boludo, Colectivo, I think are only Rioplatense. Mariano(t/c) 09:10, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

BTW, valija might be prefered in Argentina because of it similarity with Italian valigia. Mariano(t/c) 09:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

In the dictionary or not, words used primarily for a meaning within a culture are considered part of its language. I haven't looked in the past few years, but I always had difficulty finding clear-cut Rioplatense words in many "Spanish" dictionaries in the past. Perhaps that has changed now. Also, dictionaries get updated, so I think I'll be looking again at newer ones. "Valija" makes me chuckle, especially the first time my Gallego brother-in-law heard it from me ;) --MartinezMD (talk) 02:14, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, people editing a dictionary trimmit down to the public it's oriented to. the RAE's Dictionary is supposed to have all accepted words; you might be luckier there. Rioplatense words are usually labeled as Arg. y Ur. (try searching for boludo). You'll find Laburo or chumbo ( coloq. Arg. y Ur. ) and some of the most widely used lunfardo expresions, but not things like vesre, or ortiba.

There are a lot of words we use that are not that common in Standard Spanish such as Valija or Ricota, but we use because they have a similar counterpart in Italian. It's funny for instance that we associate the ass "culo" with luck as the Italians do, while Spanish would look confused on a commet such as "que culo!" after a lucky hit by someone. Mariano(t/c) 06:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

About this:

"

In Uruguay, a lot of people would say "buzo" instead of "pulóver" (example). -- NaBUru38 15:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

"

Well in argentina, the "buzos" are made of cotton, and the "pulóveres/pulóvers" are made of wool. That's basically the diference :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.212.239.224 (talk) 12:07, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Rest of Argentina?

I see one is immediately redirected to this page when one enters "Argentine Spanish". But as it seems, Rioplatense is only the variant of some parts of Argentina...what about the rest of the country? What accent zone do these regions fit into? LightPhoenix (talk) 10:00, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

The "Rioplatense Spanish" is not only Rioplatense. It's talked all around Argentina. What happens is that on the frontiers, the cultural exchange varied the lenguage used in those areas. Example: In Misiones people talk "portuñol" (a mix between postuguese and spanish) because there's a frontier between Brazil and Argentina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.212.239.224 (talk) 12:12, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

This issue remains open. Why isn't there an article Argentine Spanish? Every other Spanish-speaking country in the Americas has an article dedicated to its peculiar type(s) of Spanish (for better or worse, given that linguistic boundaries rarely coincide with political ones). They do not redirect you to an article that discusses only the language of the capital city and environs. There is literature on this. For example Canfield (1981:23-27) and Lipski (1994:162-181) both recount the history of Argentina's settlement—Buenos Aires from Spain (porteños), and the west and northwest from the direction of Peru and Chile (cuyanos), with different linguistic results. Canfield includes three maps showing the distribution of s-aspiration, yeísmo, and r-assibilation. Lipski delineates six dialect zones in the country. At present there is no place in Wikipedia for this information to go.

• Canfield, D. Lincoln (1981), Spanish Pronunciation in the Americas, Chicago: University of Chicago Press
• Lipski, John M. (1994), Latin American Spanish, London: Longman

Kotabatubara (talk) 19:47, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

"Dialects"

This article continues the INSANE Wikipedia delusion that there are "dialects" of Spanish. While the technical trivial differences in expression so painstakingly detailed in the text may be interesting, if you speak Spanish from ANY part of the world, you can go to ANY part of Argentina, and if they are speaking Spanish, IT'S THE SAME LANGUAGE! Perfectly understandable, even if you call a peach something different, it's only a regional idiosyncratic term, and wouldn't throw you off kilter any more than a Southern US person telling a person from Illinois that Jewfish is on the menu. It only takes a second to learn that it's a Grouper, and it's not a dialect, for Pete's sake! Someone needs to take control of this issue. It's Wiki-wide, and it's wrong. I know. I'm from Puerto Rico, a native Spanish speaker, and I've been to numerous countries in Latin America, South America, and Spain. IT'S ALL THE SAME LANGUAGE! GEEZ! I've even had people here in the US argue with me! They so authoritatively try to tell me that if I speak "Puerto Rican Spanish" I can't understand someone from Spain or Bolivia! I can't talk them out of it! (Probably because they've read it in Wikipedia). It's an ignorant contention, and I'm not sure what the genesis of it is. Wikipedia should NOT be perpetuating this fiction.98.170.200.68 (talk) 05:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree with the poster. I am a Spanish native speaker (Argentina) and he is correct. Italy has dialects. Napolitan is different from Italian. Rioplatense Spanish is not that different from Colombian Spanish. What is has is a different accent and some different words for a few everyday things. It is still the same language as in Spain or elsewhere and perfectly understandable. -- Alexf^(talk) 11:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Definition time: "Linguists use the term 'dialect' to denote patterns in the way people use language. These patterns include pronunciation (or 'accent'), vocabulary and grammatical structures that reflect the user's cultural and regional backgrounds." Walt Wolfram (2002). "Everyone Has an Accent" in (Brenda Miller Power and Ruth Shagoury Hubbard, Eds.) Language Development: A Reader for Teachers. Therefore, Spanish does have dialects and Rioplatense is one of them. Craig Hughes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.250.180.74 (talk) 18:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to correct you, Alexf, but Spanish is NOT the same in every country as you may think, partly because here in Argentina we use "vos sos" instead of "tú eres" or "vení" instead of "ven" or even "mirá" and "andá" instead of "ve" which is used for both the command form of "ir" and "ver" in all other countries, especially in the dubbing industry. Additionally, here in Argentina we say "pileta" for both "(swimming) pool" and "sink", while they are, respectively, "piscina" and "lavadero" in all other countries in the same way we say "pelotas" to mean both "male genitals" and "(foot)balls" while other countries may use "balones" for the second sense and "bolas" for the first as in, "¡Me tenés las pelotas llenas!" which is synonymous with when one, in English, says something like "You're pissing me off!" --Fandelasketchup (talk) 22:43, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

This shouldn't be the direct link from Argentina infobox

Given that Rioplatense Spanish is just a regional speech in Argentina, this article shouldn't be linked from Argentina infobox as representive of the whole of -or even the standard- Spanish spoken in Argentina. --IANVS (talk) 22:08, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Please restore the previous title!

Why was the page title changed? First, it's nonsensical since "Castellane" is not even an English word. Second, it's totally inconsistent with the material inside the article (which uses, correctly, "Rioplatense Spanish"), but also with the wikipages in other languages (check the use in French, German, for instance). Can we please go back to the previous title, and changed accordingly all other associated links?Nordisk varg (talk) 19:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

This was a bizarre move by a new user who doesn't appear to speak much English. The previous title should be restored immediately.Jeppiz (talk) 20:50, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

A simple "undo" doesn't revert a moved page. I just tried. Let's see if I can go around it.--MartinezMD (talk) 20:57, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I tried a proper move but it is restricted. Place a request with an admin. Expect help soon enough.--MartinezMD (talk) 21:05, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I filed a requent at WP:ANIJeppiz (talk) 21:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

MartinezMD, your English grammar is very poor as you ommited the pronoun "it" after "tried". It should have been "I just tried it" or, even better, use the word "that", like this:"I just tried that". Please learn English grammar before posting another claim here. --Fandelasketchup (talk) 22:47, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Please notice this thread is ten years old and the move has already been undone before condemning other people's command of English here. Nardog (talk) 23:09, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Hot Dog

In Argentina the "salchicha" is always a "salchicha", the "hot dog" is "pancho". So I've just changed the spanish word "salchicha" to "perro caliente", that is the used in Spain to say "hot dog". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.85.6.27 (talk) 00:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

We say salchicha in my household, which includes Bs.As. and Mendocinos. I reverted unless there is a better source.--MartinezMD (talk) 03:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You say salchicha when you mean sausage, but if you want to say hot dog, the word used in Argentina and Uruguay is "pancho". See the articles here in Wikipedia. You can't mean a hot dog (perro caliente in Spain) saying just "salchicha".

Me. A rioplatense in Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.85.6.27 (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

A perro caliente is a direct but inaccurate translation. A "pancho" would be an accurate alternative. Also, is a hot dog not a specific type of sausage? That would make 'salchicha' accurate as well. --MartinezMD (talk) 21:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

No sé si hablás español, pero a lo mejor me hago entender así. Lo que quiero decir es que en el cuadro se muestran las distintas palabras usadas para designar un mismo elemento. En este caso el "pancho", de uso rioplatense. Un "pancho", en España (Andalucía) y México, es un "Perro Caliente", no una salchicha, porque la salchicha no es más que parte del perro caliente. Además que una salchicha española, en Argentina y Uruguay también es una salchicha.

Por eso, si se va a poner la traducción de salchicha, que se ponga salchicha en Rioplatense y Sausage en inglés, o sino, si se está explicando como se dice Pancho en otros idiomas (ahí está bien HotDog para los angloparlantes) que se ponga Perro Caliente, que es como se le llama en México y España.

Esto es comprobable, acá mismo en Wikipedia, buscando los artículos de "Perro Caliente" y "Salchicha". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.85.6.27 (talk) 23:13, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

'S' aspiration

The aspiration of the 's' between or at the end of words is a quite carachteristic feature for rioplatense speech, I know. But its use is not at all a near universal (as this article appears to suggest) nor the standard. In fact, for the majority of educated speakers it is just a purposefully idiosincratic exaggeration of the speech. I think that this article has to state the minority status of this linguistic feature. At least, I would like to see some sources backing the current attribution of a standard status for it. Salut, --IANVS (talk) 03:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Having no response here nor sources added to the article, I edited the mentioned paragraphs. Salut, --IANVS (talk | cont) 02:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Should Santa Fe city be included?

The article has been changed to include Santa Fe among the main cities in the Argentine side of the area. I just want to point out that the map on the page leaves Santa Fe outside. I understand the map may be qualitative, but I would like to check with someone from Santa Fe province about this. While I know Rosario's dialect is the same as that of Buenos Aires and La Plata, much of the interior of Santa Fe province speaks differently. I'm not sure what happens in Santa Fe capital. Can anyone confirm whether this city should be included?Nordisk varg (talk) 17:14, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not from Santa Fe, but from Mar del Plata (and I also added MdQ to the list though it does not appear in the map either). As for Sta. Fe I can tell that both in Rosario and in Santa Fe city, they speak the same way as we do, with some regional words as in every city, but in the interior of Santa Fe speak quite different but still using voseo most of the time

--190.178-y-lo-que-toque (talk) 12:33, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm from Santa Fe City and I can confirm that it should be included, altough our speech is not the same as Porteño for several reasons, but still RP nonetheless.

This might interest you guys! :)

http://ar.answers.yahoo.com This Yahoo! Answers implementation does use Rioplatense Spanish :) Preguntá! Rispondé! Descubrí! I dunno if it's too much "advertising" to put this into the article, but whatever, it's very interesting! -andy 217.50.63.129 (talk) 18:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Little change

I added Mar del Plata to the list of locations in which Rioplatense Spanish mainly based. It is only 250 miles away from Buenos Aires and since its foundation shares almost evey aspect of Buenos Aires idiosyncrasy and customs. Even its name means Sea of Río de la Plata.

--190.178-y-lo-que-toque (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The Argentine "r"

In the Wikipedia page entitled "Languages of Argentina", the section on Spanish says that the pronunciation of "r" in Argentina is approximately like the sound "zh" found in the English word "viSIon". Should that be included in the page on "Rioplatense Spanish"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.154.52 (talk) 16:56, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

This is not true for Rioplatense Spanish but for Northwestern and Cuyano Spanish. The Spanish Wikipedia says: se asibilan las erres, en /rr /> [řř] (sonoramente), y /r/ inicial > [ř] Rioplatense Spanish retains the [rr]. Unoffensive text or character (talk) 09:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Would anyone be opposed to me changing the information on the page "Languages of Argentina?" That is, the information concerning the sounding of "r" for Argentine Spanish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.185.154.52 (talk) 20:09, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 12:12, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

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Rioplatense Spanish → Riverplate Spanish – Rioplatense is a Spanish word; it's foreign to English language. It's like to have an article named Guatemalteco Spanish, Castellano Spanish, Andaluz Spanish or Puertorriqueño Spanish, it doesn't has sense. ★ Nacho ★ ★ 18:34, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: there is nothing unusual about using in English words in, or derived from, another language to describe a dialect or variant of that language. In relation to Spanish, we use Castúo, Cuyano, Chilote, Islote etc. In relation to this particular form, "Rioplatense Spanish" is much more common than "Riverplate Spanish" (which in any case is usually rendered as "River Plate Spanish". Brocach (talk) 12:42, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: per above. It's fine as-is. "Riverplate Spanish" is nonsense. "River Plate Spanish", the proper syntax, would not make sense because it its not the river but the area. "Rioplatense" is the proper demonym for people from the area, which includes parts of Argentina and Uruguay. -- Alexf^(talk) 13:08, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
• Support per WP:UE, although it should be River Plate Spanish, as has been noted. "river plate spanish" -wikipedia actually gets noticeably more results than "rioplatense spanish" -wikipedia and no wonder, given that the latter is a confused mix of Spanish and English. If we're determined to keep "Rioplatense" in the title, we might as well move to Español rioplatense. --BDD (talk) 16:31, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: per above. River Plate Spanish should re-direct to here but rioplatanse is the correct demonym. I have always heard it referred to as Rioplatanse and not Rioplatense Spanish, so if we were to move this page at all it should be to just Rioplatense. Dusty|💬|You can help! 16:51, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Influenced by Rioplatense

You may want to comment on the influence of Rioplatense on other dialects and languages. However I don't remember many examples:

• pibe and especially piba and pibita are used in modern Spanish slang.
• some Rioplatense words are found in Galician language but not in the Spanish of Spain. I think that bondi is an example.

I don't know if Che should be mentioned as well. --Error (talk) 22:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Diphthong simplification

I think we need to remove the "and some common instances of diphthong simplification" part from the Phonology section. The voseo forms such as querés are not simply 'modifications' (or 'simplifications') of the tuteo forms such as quieres. Here's what Voseo#Conjugation with vos says (and it's properly sourced): "All modern voseo declensions derive from Old Spanish second person plural -ades, -edes, -ides, and -odes (as in sodes, 'you are'). The 14th and 15th centuries saw an evolution of these declensions, with -ades originally giving -áis, -edes giving -és (or -ís), -ides giving -ís, and -odes giving -óis. Soon analogous forms -ás and -éis appeared." In this case, I don't think you can speak about any diphthong simplifications, unless they appear in other contexts. Either way, that sentence is not even sourced. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 17:25, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Removed it finally :v Erinius (talk) 12:34, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 22 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) Kharkiv07 (T) 19:43, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

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Rioplatense Spanish → River Plate Spanish – It is more natural to use the English name for the region than the Spanish-language demonym for the title and the rest of the article. ★ Nacho ★ (Talk page) ★ 15:32, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Already discussed in the past, see above. I don't see any new information to make the change any more appropriate now.MartinezMD (talk) 06:40, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - when we discuss this variety of Spanish in English, it's almost exclusively with this word. Red Slash 13:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - This issue has been discussed before. Not only is this variety of Spanish usually called Rioplatense Spanish in English, but even the river is usually called the Rio de la Plata in English. Chelmian (talk) 03:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - Using three different search engines, I find that Rioplatense is 120 to 230 times as common as "River Plate Spanish". M.boli (talk) 05:44, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Added mention of River Plate Spanish

Although Rioplatense seems to be much more commonly used than River Plate Spanish, I noticed that the latter occurs frequently in academic publications. So I added a sentence to the lede paragraph noting it as an alternate name. There was already a redirect in place. M.boli (talk) 16:47, 31 May 2015 (UTC)