Talk:Hat-trick

Zonk

If marbles are allowed on the page so should Zonk.

Taft

I noticed someone added a story about the term "hat trick" being coined by a Canadian called Sammy Taft. A bit of searching turned up a lot of hits for this story. Mr Taft allegedly coined the term in the 1930s. However, it was in use in cricket in the 19th century, so it's safe to say that the Sammy Taft story is completely apocryphal. --dmmaus 11:06, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It now says "It is not certain whether he picked up this practice from cricket". An amusing story if he devised exactly the same term and concept independently, but also highly unlikely.

Can someone please provide some documentation concerning Taft? I also found this information on the hat-trick in hockey: "The term "Hat Trick" is traced back to the Guelph "Biltmores" of the Ontario Major Junior "A" league of the 1930's who were sponsored by the Biltmore Hat Company.

If a Guelph player was to score 3 goals in a game, the company would give them a new men's hat of their choice from the show room. The fans also began the tradition of throwing their hats onto the ice after the man had scored his third goal of the game." - Jim Bunting. Toronto. "

'Brace'

(Cricket): "Taking two wickets in two consecutive deliveries is known as a brace." - not where I come from. Instead I would call it "being on a hat-trick". --Henrygb 23:21, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I would say the bowler who had taken two consecutive wickets was 'on a hat-trick' until he has bowled the third delivery. If you bowl the hat-trick ball and fail to take a wicket you don't remain 'on a hat-trick', but you do go away with a 'brace'. --Ngb 10:45, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I take the point. But looking back, I would say for 3-in-a-row: "He bowled a hat-trick", for 2-in-a-row: "He was on a hat-trick". I don't recall ever having heard "brace" in that sense in cricket: compare the uses [1] and [2]. Brace seems to mean either two of anything or a support. --Henrygb 17:12, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you about brace, and I'm not sure about "double hat-trick" either; I have seen it used to mean 4 in 4, but for the most part if I heard someone say that I'd think either they meant six wickets in six balls (which does occasionally happen in minor cricket) or, slightly more likely, a hat-trick in each innings of a match. Loganberry (Talk) 02:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's mainly an antipodean term, I guess not in common usage as it's not a common feat.-- Paul 06:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've edited to say that "brace" is only occasionally used. I think even that's being rather kind, to be honest, and I can't ever remember seeing it being used in this specific sense, but I suppose it must have been heard somewhere or it wouldn't be in the article to start with. Loganberry (Talk) 00:49, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

If you've been listening to Test Match Special during the current Ashes series, you will have heard Jonathon Agnew saying it several times at appropriate moments. So it's certainly used, although I agree it's more occasional than regular. -dmmaus 00:59, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I can't actually remember hearing Aggers say it, but I don't doubt your word. Mind you, he does use all kinds of odd expressions... =;) Loganberry (Talk) 04:25, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

In the 1955 Canadian Interprovincial Tournament, playing for Ontario against British Columbia, Brian Christen hit the wickets with five consecutive balls, but didn't get a hat trick because the third was a no-ball. I guess he got a brace of braces. (I was fielding mid-wicket for that over).

Natural Hat Trick In Hockey

Most other sites (and people) have said that a natural hat trick is only when someone scores 3 consecutive goals, not three in one period. Can someone find something to back up the 3 goals in a period claim.

I agree. I'm tempted to remove this condition for a natural hat trick. Hansj102 17:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Natural hat trick I am confused. Former Blackhawk Bill Mosienko holds the NHL record for scoring the quickest hat trick. He scored 3 goals in 21 seconds against the New York Rangers on March 23, 1952.

Then: The term natural hat trick refers to when a player scores three goals consecutively in a single game. The goals do not have to happen in the same period. Ryan Smyth of the Edmonton Oilers set an Edmonton Oilers record for the fastest natural hat trick by scoring three consecutive goals against the San Jose Sharks in 2 minutes, one second on October 12, 2006. Ryan Smyth beat Wayne Gretzky's previous Edmonton Oilers record by 17 seconds.

Am I to believe that in between Mosienkos three goals in 21 seconds, someone else also scored? If so, I think that is worth mentioning...

I think you're confusing the NHL record with the team specific Edmonton Oilers record. Hansj102 17:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

In NCAA Division 1 college hockey, C._J._Young scored the fastest three goals in Harvard men's hockey history on December 12, 1988, collecting a short-handed hat-trick in a span of 49 seconds against Dartmouth. This predates the wikipedia page's claim that The first player to score a shorthanded natural hat trick was Jamey Hicks, who performed the feat whilst playing for Birmingham Bulls in a game against Ice Pilots on January 2 1998. unless only pro teams are being considered. I think this should be added to the page, at any rate, since it is a notable hat-trick. It occurred over two periods, although the discussion above suggests that the all-in-one-period requirement for a natural hat-trick is spurious. Reference: http://www.gocrimson.com/information/history/traditiontimeline. Also, I was there to witness the feat.

List of NCAA Div. 1 hockey shorthanded hat-tricks:

Zach Harrison, Minnesota State vs. North Dakota, 2008 George Awada, St. Cloud State vs. Michigan Tech, 1998 Jayson Greyerbiehl, Colgate vs. Yale, 1989 C.J. Young, Harvard, vs. Dartmouth, 1988 Greg Dreschel, Colgate vs. Rensselaer, 1987 Norm Cherrey, Wisconsin vs. Minnesota Duluth, 1973 Jreinertnash (talk) 21:29, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding like I'm talking to myself, I did look back at the page history and I see that Young's, Harrison's, and several other short-handed hat-tricks used to be listed in a previous version. While the older version had a rather extensive list that was justifiably pruned, the current page should reflect that the Hicks hat-trick is the earliest pro shorthanded natural one. I would also argue that the C.J. Young feat is notable for its speed. Jreinertnash (talk) 22:16, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Scoring six goals in one game

Ugur Yildirim scored six times against Cambuur Leeuwarden on May 23,2003.Is he allowed to keep two balls?

So Germany and Norway have specific terms in their languages for hat-trick? This makes little sense in either Spanish or Portuguese. When someone scores three goals, we say he scores three goals. Nothing special. As a matter of fact, scoring four times is much more fun.

Perhaps it is because Latins in general have never played cricket or ice hockey.

References

True Hat-tricks in Football

Some regard a "true", or "perfect" hat-trick as one where the player scores with both feet and their head in the same match...

I have been enthusiastically watching (and playing) the game of football for most of my 32 years on this planet and this is the first time I have ever heard this idea of a "true" hat-trick - there is absolutely no provenance given to the claim either. A hat-trick in association football is not specified by the rules, so its interpretation in this context is bound by how it is generally accepted. Anyone who even casually follows the sport should know that the goals that constitute a hat-trick can be scored at any time in the match, excluding goals in a pen shoot-out (which aren't recognised by regulating bodies as counting to a player's scoring tally), but including those scored in extra time periods. Goals by other players may seperate them, and they can be scored in any fashion, that is, if a player scores three goals all via his knee, then it is still a hat-trick. It might be an particularly unimpressive hat-trick, but it is a hat-trick nonetheless. I am deleting this sentence, which has oh-so-offended my delicate sensibilities. Beerathon 12:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

And that bit about all 3 goals being scored in the same half is bunk as well... Beerathon 12:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Believe it or not, but others who edited this "bunk" have also played or watched football, and in at least one case for more than 32 years. So keep "your delicate sensibilities" to yourself. --Matthead 13:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Matthead - I didn't mean to offend you by the use of the word 'bunk'! - its an anachronism which I believed would be taken in jest. However, I feel that for you to just revert my edit without any other counter-argument other than tell me to mind my own business is a bit out of order.

What I believe to be the definitive description of a football hat-trick can be found over and over again in sports reports on TV, in Newspapers and online:

Peter Crouch hat-trick 1st half header, then two left-foot finishes in 2nd - with a Michael Owen goal seperating them from the first

Ljungberg hat trick one in 1st half, 2 in the 2nd.

Thierry Henry hat trick another hat-trick split by the half time period.

Now I'm not going to start an edit-war (just yet!), but if you want the article to state that other alternative definitions of a footballing hat-trick are in general use, then you need to cite some examples. For the time being I won't revert, and I'll wait for your response. Beerathon 14:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the question is, means hat-trick just "three goals by one player times in game"? The football section states so in its first sentence, which is okay as it is used by some in that context. No official definitions are given by FIFA etc. or even the media anyway. Yet, some use the term for more rare achievements only, else it would by sufficient to say "X scored 3 times overall". As I understand, more goals were scored in the past (pre 1960s) than today, so 3 goals were common, and only if these were scored with certain conditions (like in cricket), it was called a hat-trick. As scoring is lower since, hat-tricks became more rare. German wikipedia says that hat-tricks (of the "3 in a row in one half" kind) occurr once in 300 games, and that Bundesliga has seen 87 of these hat-tricks since 1963, about 2 per season only. Both media and fans use terms generously anyway to spice up reports or praise their team, not caring much about oldfashioned, more restricted use for higher merit. --Matthead 16:31, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

So that's no citation then? Beerathon is right. It is bunk and should be removed. Jooler 17:17, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary says a "natural hat-trick" is one where three goals are scored in succession by one player in one game. (compare to hat trick, which is three goals by one player in one game.) Also, it has been used by media: see WUSA Weekly report from a site called The Sports Network. It's probably more common in ice hockey, but can be used in football as well, and more common in other countries (ekte hattrick, the Norwegian term, gets 1,170 hits, of 94,600 total, where many would probably be about the webgame). Sam Vimes 18:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sources? No problem. How about these:

• Prague Newspaper: "Zunächst hatte Róbert Vittek alle drei Treffer zum 3:0-Heimsieg gegen Duisburg erzielt, dann glückte ihm eine Woche später beim 4:3 in Köln sogar ein lupenreiner Hattrick – innerhalb von nur 17 Minuten." - "First, Vittek scored all 3 goals in the 3:0 win over Duisburg, then, a week later, he succeeded in the 4:3 in Cologne with a flawless hat-trick within only 17 minutes."
• [3] "Vier Tore von Nico Patschinski, darunter ein lupenreiner Hattrick, verhalfen Pauli zum 5:2-Sieg beim nunmehr Letzten, Mannheim. Alle sieben Tore fielen nach der Pause." - "Four goals by Nico Patschinski, among them a flawless hat-trick, helped Pauli win 5:2. All goals were scored in second half."
• [4] "Frankreichs Superstar Michel Platini ... gelang ihm ausgerechnet in seinem Heimatstadion in St. Etienne gegen Jugoslawien binnen 18 Minuten ein lupenreiner Hattrick." - "Platini scored in St. Etienne during EC 1984 a flawless hat-trick within 18 minutes against Yugoslavia". (His 3 goals vs. Belgium were no hat-trick, just 3 goals)
• [5] "Patrick Bengondo. Herr Bengondo wollte wohl nicht mehr selber schiessen. Verständlich, denn er hatte Herrn Coltorti im selben Spiel bereits dreimal besiegt. Dani Wyler hat uns verdankenswerterweise darüber aufgeklärt, dass diese drei Tore kein echter Hattrick gewesen sind. Natürlich hat Herr Wyler den Kalauer mit "Pattrick" dann trotzdem gemacht." - "Dani Wyler pointed out that the 3 goals by Patrick Bengondo were no true hat-trick. But Wyler made the pun about Pat-trick anyway."
• Questionnaire for fans:"Ein Hattrick ist ... wenn ein Spieler 3 Tore in einem Spiel schießt, ohne dass ein anderer dazwischen ebenfalls ein Tor macht. Gelingt das innerhalb einer Halbzeit, ist es ein sogenannter echter Hattrick." - "Hat-trick is when a player scores 3 times without another in between. If this is done within a half, it's a true one."
• [6] "Wir haben den echten und den unechten Hattrick. Der echte ist in einer Halbzeit drei Tore von einem Spieler, der unechte wird über das gesamte Spiel gewertet, da müssen die Tore dann nicht in einer halbzeit fallen." - "There are true and untrue hat-tricks, untrue ones are counted over the whole game"

See also bilingual discussion. I understand that the English use hat-trick for praising each rare occasion that of them scores three times, but elsewhere, the standards for declaring a hat-trick were not watered down: only 3 consecutive goals in one half are a flawless hattrick. All else is "3 goals by player X". --Matthead 18:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm more than satisfied by your sources Matthead - however the section on footballing hat-tricks still needs to be worked on badly. First off, it is clear that there is a division regarding the accepted definition of a hat-trick. But it is not clear exactly how widespread either definition is, and unless someone wants to conduct some research into what every culture on Earth believes to a hat-trick, we're not going to know either! However, it doesn't matter as both definitions seem to be in general use and are therefore valid. Because this is a linguistic issue, neither definition should take precedence. At the moment there is a distinct bias in the article towards the concept of a 'flawless' or 'true' hat-trick'. The statement that this is 'the most common deinition' is not quantifiable and should be removed. Both versions should be stated to be acceptable definitions.

Second, the section about Hurst's hat-trick goes into to much detail, and is poorly written. It is also overtly disparaging to the point that much of its content is irrelevent - and there is clearly an anti-English bias. It is certainly worthy of inclusion but needs to be pared down to the facts as it is too prosaic. (BTW, I'm English and I know it didn't cross the line. But hey, that's football... Hand of God anyone?)

Finally, I question whether the middle paragraph is all that relevant. This is, afterall, an article about scoring 3 goals, not 2 or 4! Beerathon 10:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never heard any of these phrases used in English either, and it is notable that none of the quoted sources are English language. I think the appropriate way to deal with these in the football section, given that this is the English version of Wikipedia, is to have these terms mentioned in a short paragraph at the end discussing the use of the phrases in other countries. Currently, the articles does not accurately reflect English usage. Westmorlandia (talk) 13:23, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey guys - I'm pretty much new here, but I'm kinda sure the part about Butterfield's goals should be removed. Though nice for a defender to score 3 goals satisfying every "perfect hattrick"-definition, this term is certainly no known or used term (maybe yet) - due to the fact it happened about yesterday or so. But I doubt it will enter major use due Butterfields relative obscurity. Therefore I will remove this part, is this okay? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.33.104.62 (talk) 02:29, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I also removed the "dubious"-statement about the discussion of the German definition. It seems clear and backed by sources that this is in fact the definition of hattrick in other countries, therefore I decided to remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.33.104.62 (talk) 02:34, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Etymology

This cannot be a serious piece of etymology - can it be deleted?

See the reference at the end. Tintin (talk) 05:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Here was I, thinking all this time that the reference was to a performing magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat. Of course, my supposition has no reference in the OED...96.238.210.213 (talk) 21:51, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Trivia

I added some trivia to the sports hat-trick football section but it was removed citing requirement for stats for each country. Whilst this is potentially a possibility surely some form of noteable hat-trick trvia would be worthwhile? A hat-trick of hat-tricks (which I noted only England because cannot vouch for other leagues) is surely worthy of addition to the hat-trick section?

If the number of pieces of trivia were large enough then couldn't a hat-trick trvia by country section be added much like the 'world cup hat-tricks' section?ny156uk 18:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It was me that removed it. We already have fastest hat-trick, and only hat-trick in a World Cup final. I wouldn't object to some more things of that sort, I just didn't want to get into having country-specific stats like fastest in the English Premier League, because otherwise we'd have to do it for all the major countries. Three hat-tricks in three games is interesting, but I would be surprised if it was unique, world-wide. Stephen Turner (Talk) 18:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It may be suitable for Football records in England Tintin (talk) 18:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Cricket hat-trick - same batsman dismissed twice

In a local match that I umpired recently the same batsman was dismissed twice in the same hat-trick! (Last man out in the first innings as second consecutive wicket, dismissed in second innings by the same bowler's first ball.) Has this happened in first-class cricket? MulgaBill 09:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Ultimate Hat trick (lemieux)

I've heard the more accurate term QUINTELLA, used, so If there are no objections, I will replace the utlimate/super hat tricks etc. in the part with QUINTELLA withing two days. The Evil Clown 18:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Images

Could we get images of three successive balls in which a hat-trick occured ?

or atleast images of some bowlers who got max hat-tricks.Wildpixs 13:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Double hat-trick

Surely a double hat-trick (esp cricket) should involve 6 wickets? I would interpret that as 3 consecutive wickets twice, not 4 wickets counting the 2nd and 3rd twice. Is this actually a recognised term? –MDCollins (talk) 23:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

As someone who took four wickets in succession in a cricket match in Australia in 1981, I can confirm that the term 'double hat trick' was in common usage then. My feat was described as a 'double hat-trick' at the time it occurred and I have never encountered any other terminology. It is therefore safe to assume that four wickets in a row a double hat-trick, at least in Australia. Bengalthylacine (talk) 06:10, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

A quick google throws up Proteas escape after Malinga double hat-trick: "Malinga's late flurry turned the match dramatically as the Sri Lankan paceman claimed Shaun Pollock (13), Andrew Hall (0), Kallis (86), and Makhaya Ntini (0) in consecutive deliveries, to claim the first four-ball hat-trick in one-day international or Test cricket history." I agree it is counter-intuitive, but there are other similar uses of double to mean "a bit more than what is already a lot": in golf#scoring "double eagle" is one better than eagle; and The American Heritage® Dictionary, sense 6. is "Botany: Having many more than the usual number of petals, usually in a crowded or an overlapping arrangement: a double chrysanthemum.". jnestorius^(talk) 21:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Obviously it's catching on in .au, at least: "Double hat-trick can't stop Proteas". The more specific rationale would be that it contains two sequences that, on their own, would constitute a hat-trick. (i.e. Pollock-Hall-Kallis is a hat-trick; Hall-Kallis-Ntini is a hat-trick.) Alai 03:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, a Google books search shows several uses of double hat trick for "six-in-a-row" in cricket.. jnestorius^(talk) 00:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't imagine that sees a lot of application, outside the scope of Jennings stories! But it's certainly one of the (about three distinct) definitions one might plausibly rationalise. Alai 00:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

So it's official... of the three definitions one might suppose "double hat-trick" to have, it's been used to mean each of them on different occasions:

1. Two separate hat-tricks (i.e. three consecutive wickets, twice non-consecutively) [7]
2. Two hat-tricks end-to-end (i.e. six wickets consecutively). jnestorius's suggestion of Google Books Search turns up two in the context of cricket -- both fictional, evidently. For example, [8].
3. Four consecutive wickets (as above).

Bear in mind that contexts other than cricket tend to use it to mean essentially "three of something", regardless of sequence, so a "double hat-trick of tries" (or goals, or anything else) is pretty much necessarily going to always mean "six, but in no particular order". Alai 06:26, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Using the logic of a double hat-trick being four in four, as wickets 1-2-3 are a h/trick and 2-3-4 are too, then a batsman scoring 101 runs should have a double-century... Or why is the fastest 50/100 counted from the first ball? Why not from any ball, eg a score from 30 to 80 with that being achived in a fewer number of balls than the current record? But I digress. Lugnuts 19:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't put it past some enterprising statistician to start counting "flying start fifties", as well as the conventional sort. Centuries I'd have said had more of the character of an amount, rather than a sequence (apart from that rather key "without getting out" aspect). Pragmatically, it's probably in part because 4 in 4 seems like a "notable thing there's not an accepted name for", whereas 6 in 6 seems like a thing something's not likely to be in need with one. But anyhoo, I'm not here to defend the muddle, just to report it... Alai 04:20, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who has ever countenanced four in four as a double hat trick should feel REALLY proud now. Apparently, five in five is a triple hat trick. Not the two documented minor match achievements of nine in nine. One more time - it matters not one iota how many times an error is repeated it does NOT make it right. Taken to extremes, if I said something rather clever about the history of the universe (perhaps the formation of the first double star-trick), and used a bot to get my quote onto the internet on a thousand different sources, worded differently each time, and then commented on by 'others' saying how excellent the notion is, would it make that opinion more valid that that of Stephen Hawking? Of course not. So the Fox reporter who first quoted 4 in 4 as a DH in realtion to malinga's feat makes a wrong assumption about terminology he is not (clearly) qualified to comment on, and Wikipedia validated it. And still does. WillE (talk) 21:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

And white people aren't really white. A DHT meaning four in a row has been used in Australia for some time (I first heard it over 30 years ago). Doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense, WP just notes its usage.

Wilipedia is an international encyclopedia and to call four in four a double hat trick is not international usage. Anyway, it is just idiotic, makes zero sense and is inconsistent with the use hat-trick in any sport except Australian cricket. It is just a silly anomaly, not worth mentioning in a general article. Certainly, whoever made the enties about triple hat tricks without qualifying this by saying it was Australian cricket usage only must have a very limited outlook.

"Quatrick"?

So does this alleged term see any actual use, or did someone just blog it, create an article, and insert it here? Citation of a reliable source, please. Alai 00:11, 31 March 2007 (UTC) Re Quatrick and the above section - I'd rather see 4 in 4 called a quatrick that a double hat trick! WillE (talk) 21:18, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Self-contradiction

"In the Victorian era, the term "hat trick" referred to a common trick by magicians, where the magician used a top hat. At first, they would appear before the audience wearing the hat, which they would remove from the head and put upside down on a nearby table (on stage). Later in the show, the magician would take out 3 rabbits, one after another, from the hat

[...]

The term is now very commonly used in cricket, and was connected with the custom of giving a hat or cap to a bowler who achieved the feat of taking three wickets in a row. It may be connected with the concept of giving someone their "cap", i.e. acknowledging them as a regular member of a representative team. Another school of thought mentions that a bowler was challenged if he could take three in three. Hats were passed around to collect the odds. The bowler succeeded and collected the large amount of cash. Thus the term hat-trick could have been also derived from this event."

The etymology section authoritatively states two different etymologies for the term, and presents a third in weasel words. Does anyone have any sources for the assertations?86.0.203.120 16:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

hattrick es una jeugo online en el k kompites contra gente de todo el mundo ene spaña actualmente hay ams de 900000 usuarios activos jugando a dicho juego —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.43.122 (talk) 18:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

juego online

hattrick es una jeugo online en el k kompites contra gente de todo el mundo ene spaña actualmente hay ams de 900000 usuarios activos jugando a dicho juego —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.125.43.122 (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Twenty-TWO THOUSAND of Hallam

In reference 2 the above long standing vandalism needs removal (it should be "twenty-two of Hallam") but I don't know how to do it. treesmill (talk) 11:10, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Split hockey section in to new article

I believe the Hockey version of the hat-trick is most notable and notable enough to sustain a stand-alone article. I couldn't find one so I assume there isn't one. If there is I apologize. However, if there's not, there needs to be one. If there's an article for the feat of Hitting for the cycle there there should be one for the Hat-trick. CRRaysHead90 | ^{We Believe!} 00:33, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. The problem is that the hockey section is woefully overdone with heads and subheads and repetition. It desperately needs editing to become encyclopedic like the cricket section (which is actually larger than the hockey one). As well, there is the possibility that if this was hived off to ifs own article, it would very quickly be tagged for a merge back to this article. Moriori (talk) 01:46, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (non-admin closure) Steel1943 (talk) 08:51, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

---

Hat-trick → Hat trick – This phrase usually appears without a hyphen. According to this Ngram, the unhyphenated version has predominated over the last 40 years or so. "hat trick" -wikipedia confirms this, though there are other uses to weed through in that search. And at least in isolation, the hyphen is unnecessary for comprehension, nor does it really fit any of the conditions at WP:HYPHEN. BDD (talk) 19:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. --BDD (talk) 19:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

• Strong support. Red Slash 02:55, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
• Weak oppose - It's a compound noun à la machine-gun or copy-editing (bad examples although there are others). Here is the best explanation I have found: [9]. Not sure if there has been a discussion to explicitly not mention these in MOS:HYPHEN but there is always going to be an exception to the rule. I think that a spaced "hat trick" is more common in American English, so WP:ENGVAR may be at play here. Google Alerts from the American English Google News is pretty divided: Hat-trick, [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]; hat trick [15] [16] [17] [18] [19]. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 05:57, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Those are bad examples, Marcus, as they're both titled without the hyphens. (Machine gun, copy editing) :) --BDD (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

There are others such as T-shirt, parent-in-law, half-mast, well-being, well-behaved, Well-defined and well-order. I won't list all of them here as that would break Wikipedia. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 21:09, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

But most of those are adjectives. The nouns would be much fewer. StAnselm (talk) 21:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support as hyphens are odious in nouns. Torquemama007 (talk) 13:19, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
• Strong-support per Qwertyus. StAnselm (talk) 21:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oh you sly dog, you! Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 02:11, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per OED (you'll need a British library card number to log in) and usage by the BBC. WP:HYPHEN is a bizarre policy, and I've seen it used far too frequently to remove hyphens from words that usually have them. Number 57 12:26, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:RETAIN. Hat-trick is commonly used in British English [20] [21] [22] whilst Hat trick is more common in American [23] [24] [25], therefore retain the current variety. Zarcadia (talk) 22:05, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:ENGVAR. The hyphenated version is more common in British English, and since there are no clear ties to any particular nationality, it should remain as it is. – PeeJay 01:05, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
• Support – Most commonly used without hypens as an ice hockey term with strong ties to Canadian culture and usage. “Hat trick” without the hyphen, has been consistently used since at least the 1930s as evidenced by newspaper articles from the past 80 years. 30s, 40s, 50's, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. Dolovis (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I think it's becoming clear that this is a WP:ENGVAR issue, so the article should remain where it is, but articles related to sports in different countries can spell it differently. Number 57 19:10, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
  • User:Dolovis, did it completely pass you by that the term comes from cricket and is now often used in a multitude of sports worldwide. Canadian ice hockey is not the only measure we should use for this term. – PeeJay 20:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
    • I am aware of its 19th century origin as a cricket term, but it is my observation that "hat trick" is now most commonly associated with Canada's passion - the sport of ice hockey. Dolovis (talk) 21:13, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
      • Are you serious? I presume you're unaware that it's a fairly important term in football (or soccer in your neck of the woods). Number 57 21:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
      • Perhaps in your neck of the woods it might be more closely associated with ice hockey, but to the billion people living in India (not to mention the Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans and West Indians), it's definitely more prominent as a cricket term. And then there's the use in association football, as User:Number 57 has pointed out. – PeeJay 12:08, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Zarcadia and others. This seems to be an ENGVAR issue, so the original form should remain.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per N57. GiantSnowman 13:21, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. Are you all mad? Here in Germany, the motherland of English, we simply join the words: de:Hattrick. That is how it's correctly done. Failing the adoption of the correct German style, I support the request. Worldwide, the hyphenated variant is not as common as the unhyphenated variant. --89.0.220.231 (talk) 06:54, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Baseball?

I've played, coached, watched, read about, and just generally followed the sport for 50 years and have never heard the word Hat Trick uttered in reference to Baseball. I suppose in a joking manner if someone hit 3 home runs somebody may have said something like "I guess that's like a Hat Trick." But no, a Hat Trick in the US is strictly a hockey term (that's Ice Hockey for those who have another kind). Obviously someone unfamiliar with Baseball just made this up out of whole cloth because I suppose it made sense to them. Emmetlang (talk) 03:11, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

I tend to agree. "Golden sombrero" is a far more common term than in baseball. I would say that if a cite can't be found, feel free to remove it. Resolute 19:34, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

'Fastest' definition

What is the agreed definition on 'fastest'? Is it 'time elapsed since start of match' or 'time taken to score three goals'? Carli Lloyd scored 3 goals within the first 16 minutes of the Women's Football (soccer) World Cup final, but Fabienne Humm scored three goals within 5 minutes (but between 47' and 52') earlier in the same competition for Switzerland. Forever Everyday (talk) 19:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Either definition will be correct, so long as it is placed in context. You could mention both records, the first as a record for fastest three goals, and the second as fastest three goals from the start of a match. Resolute 19:34, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of strict and non-strict meanings

For soccer and ice hockey (and possibly other sports too) the claim is made that a hat trick consists of three goals in a game, with an minor addition on "natural hat-tricks' later on.

It is true that this description corresponds to the most common modern use. However, in the strictest sense, in these sports, a hat-trick is three goals in a row in the same half/period. This, going by what I have seen used over the years, is also the originally dominating sense, with the simple "three goals" being the result of a devaluation of the term (likely by journalists). Certainly, those in the know rate the "true" hat-trick as a considerably stronger accomplishment than the "everyday" hat-trick, just like bowling a perfect game on a competition grade alley is considerably more impressive than at the local "after work" alley.

I have no objections to the modern use being given as the main meaning; however, a proper discussion of the strict and non-strict sense should be added sufficiently prominently. Ideally, various meanings with various strictness should be given together. Giving "three goals" as THE meaning, without reservations, as the article does today is misleading.

Similar objections may or may not apply to sports that have a different character than soccer and ice hockey. 80.226.24.11 (talk) 20:41, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Cricket

In the ¶ on the Stephen Hickman hat trick towards the end of the Cricket §, inserting the date would be helpful.

☺ Dick Kimball (talk) 15:07, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

The lead

"A hat-trick or hat trick in sports is the achievement of a positive feat three times in a game, or another achievement based on the number three in some sports"

A hat-trick is itself a positive feat (which is why it has a name) and it doesn't have to be achieved three times in a game. If it is achieved three times in a game, then three hat-tricks have been achieved. 2c. Moriori (talk) 22:58, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Darts entry is problematic

Firstly.The darts entry says "A hat-trick in darts is a score of three consecutive bullseyes, also known as the "Alan Evans Shot", after Alan Evans scored three bulleyes during a match on numerous occasions." The reference has a significantly different description of the Allan Evans Shot. It says "... refers to the “Alan Evans Shot” (three bullseyes) when a player requires a checkout of 150." (my bolding). Scoring three bullseyes during the game is not a hat-trick, but scoring three bulls to end the game is. Secondly, the image that has been added shows three bulls, but if it is not an image of a score that ended a game, it is not an image of the Evans shot as defined by the reference. Moriori (talk) 20:51, 25 January 2020 (UTC)